Planning a second playthrough.....

#11Denton28Posted 5/4/2008 7:53:39 PM
Would like to begin by saying that this has been one of the most fun "oldschool" rpgs I have palyed in some time. I am die hard fan of Wiz8, and I love the Heroes of M&M series.

I am currently running through with a Vanilla party of Knight, Thief, Cleric, Sorceror.
So far, I am very pleased, everyone serves their role well, and as my characters are hitting their first promotions the game has become alot easier.

However, as I have learned form doing many Monastery runs in Wiz8, my thoughts have already begun to drift to an alternate party. My plan is to try classes I have not experienced thus far.

As it stands now, I am pretty set on using a Paladin, Monk and Druid.

Where I am stuck is in deciding between a Ranger or an Archer.

I have a partial affinity towards the Ranger as it is often my favorite character type in most fantasy RPGs, but I can see that the M&M Ranger leans outside of that stereotype.

I knwo this party is going to be magically weal in regards to Grandmastery, but I am hoping I can be resourceful with subcasters and strong physical offense to win the day.

My Ranger or Archer would likely also be the ones responsible for developing rogue type skills (Perception/Disarm) to leave my Monk free to become a killing machine.

Anyways, I would be very interested in your opinions or experiences with either character type.
#2aetherspoon(Moderator)Posted 5/5/2008 5:51:50 AM
You are missing something really major though: Mirrored path magic. That party would have a max of one or two people capable of Basic Light or Dark magic, which means you're missing Expert/Master/GM Light or Dark.
For a physical party, you really, REALLY need Day of the Gods and Hour of Power. You won't have that with that party, and you'll suffer GREATLY for that in the second half of the game. This is only your second playthrough, I highly recommend keeping at least a Sorcerer in your party, if not both a Sorcerer and a Cleric. There is a reason why they're in the default party.
You are also missing Disarm Trap - you can pull that off a little with having Telekinesis later and using fighter-trap-disarm early in the game, but you're missing a Sorcerer. That means using a Druid for both your primary healer AND primary buffer AND telekinesis AND town portal... you're taxing your druid too much.


In general, the Druid isn't all that great in MM7. They're passable in a dark party, but that's a magic-oriented party. You're going physical-oriented. Then again, you're dropping BOTH characters that are considered essential for a good party in MM7 - the Sorcerer and the Cleric. You can manage without a Cleric easier than without a Sorcerer (especially if you're going light-side), as that only really makes you lose Resurrection and GM Protection from Magic. Losing a Sorcerer means you don't get Starburst, Lloyd's Beacon, and the good version of Town Portal - that hurts in MM7. You NEED someone other than a druid in a melee-oriented party, and you need a Sorcerer or Cleric (probably both).

Paladins are decent, but really are surpassed by too many characters to make a difference. They might as well not have mirrored path magic, their skills aren't all that great, and they're weaker than a Monk for most of the game. Sure, they can heal decently, but they're a good secondary healer, not a primary healer. PMCS isn't too bad of a party, but you really need to drop the idea that you're going to use a Druid in a melee-oriented party.

Monks are awesome, especially in a light party, as they can take better advantage of Day of the Gods. Too bad you can't cast the spell, thus you're really not using the Monk very effectively. If you threw the Paladin out of the party and put a Sorcerer in, you could probably pull it off. My favorite Light-side party is MMCS.

Rangers get no love from the denizens of this board. They're actually not that bad, but they're not that good either. They're pretty much the most average class in the game. They have just enough magic to be able to emergency heal and nothing more useful. RMCS would be a great party.

Archers are... well, if you want to play without a sorcerer or druid, you NEED an archer, we'll put it that way. They have enough magic to be useful for a lot of the utilitarian spells, but you're never going to get a second source of offensive magic from someone without a lot more spellpoints. Most people like the Archer better than the Ranger. The balanced party from MM6 is PACS, and really that's not that bad of a party.


Now, I'm not saying such a party is impossible; we've had players beat the game with a single Knight somehow, so it is certainly possible. However, you're going to hurt a LOT with that party come end game.
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Ęther SPOON!
Resident junk computer part expert, owner of #aspoonedroom
#3WhPlaguePosted 5/5/2008 10:35:17 AM
True.

And this is why I gave Archers and Paladins access to Master Light/Dark in my own MM7 mod.

Rangers get Master their 7 schools, Druids get to GM their 7 schools, and Thieves/Monks get Expert magic in all their final classes.
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RPGs beaten: FF123456789XX2,FFT,CT,CC,XG,KH,Betrayal at Krondor, MM6&7,
UltimaUnderw.1&2,SeikenDensetsu2&3, Baldur1,SuperMarioRPG
#4zhang_danPosted 5/6/2008 1:22:54 AM
Everything AEtherSPOON said is right you really need loyds beacon,town protal and protection from magic without those your just making the game frustrating.

Telekinesis and invisibility give your party a massive boost also.

Telekinesis takes out the need for any disarm trap skill and so does day of protection later on in the game.

Invisibility gives you access to the titans stronghold very early in the game where you can pick up some great gear and money.

If your not sure about sorc`s and clerics id recomend going through the game taking the dark path with sssc and then have a rethink,also try sorcs with expert dagger skill so you can equip two.

Druids i used once and never again.

Archers i think are better than rangers but thats only my opinion.

I might go throu wiz 8 again maybe you can recomend me a fun party :)
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"Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." Bertrand Russell
#51Denton28(Topic Creator)Posted 5/6/2008 1:11:44 PM
Thanks guys, you have given me alot to consider.

The Ranger seems out, and the Archer fits my concept of a Ranger a little more.

I think I will finish my run through before coming to a final conclusion on my magic user.
I can already see the merit to a GM Protection from Magic.

I would be curious to see the Druids GM Alchemy boosts in Comparison to the attribute bonuses from DoG.
But Lloyd's beacon is definetly better than Town Portal.....

Thank you all for the input :)

I would also be happy to discuss the mechanics of Wiz8 parties, I think I've run through the game at least a dozen times with all types...
The only one I wouldn't recommend is 6 Lizardman Bishops without a very good plan.
#6aetherspoon(Moderator)Posted 5/6/2008 2:45:01 PM
Well, I'll put it this way.
GM Alchemy (10) can provide a one time permanent +50 bonus to a stat. Make potions for every stat for each character and that means you have a nice +50 to all stats permanently.
GM Light (10) can provide a temporary-but-lasts-for-nearly-ever +60 bonus to all stats for your entire party.

Main things to note though: 1, you can still buy black potions in stores and find them on the ground, so you don't necessarily need to make them, and 2, that's just with GM10 light magic. Every point beyond that adds another +5 to all stats.

You also have GM Day of Protection, GM Hour of Power (even if Haste is broken in MM7 and doesn't work in spell form at all), and of course Divine Intervention, the last healing spell you'll ever need to cast. :)
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Ęther SPOON!
Resident junk computer part expert, owner of #aspoonedroom
#7CorkPosted 5/7/2008 6:17:40 PM
Can't tell how far you are along in the game, but you should consider a restart with something other than a Thief; they aren't too much help in my opinion. You pretty much only need E5 to get through the game. I'd replace him with an archer for a good first time through party. For a replay, I happen to like KKSS. It's a little tough healing at first; but as soon as you get Lloyd's Beacon you can just pop out, heal, an pop back in. Plus it gives both great physical damage with a sword/spear combo; and obviously the Sorc does heavy magic damage with Elem and Light|Dark.

Now for Wiz8. I'm doing a second run and am trying a Sam/Mon/Gag/Ran/Bard/Bard (with RFS and Vi). I love the strength of the Bards vs the pure magic users, and I get a boatload of instruments so they both have plenty. Oh yeah, I had the one Bard start as a Rogue until L5. So he could open the early chest and still advance Int&Dex. I'm currently around L11. What do you think?
#8WhPlaguePosted 5/8/2008 8:34:09 AM
However the thief can do one very neat thing:
You can steal the control cube from Tolberti/Robert the Wise. Very easy if you cast Invisibility; stealing doesn't break off the spell!
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RPGs beaten: FF123456789XX2,FFT,CT,CC,XG,KH,Betrayal at Krondor, MM6&7,
UltimaUnderw.1&2,SeikenDensetsu2&3, Baldur1,SuperMarioRPG
#91Denton28(Topic Creator)Posted 5/8/2008 11:01:27 AM
I would dispute the usefulness of my thief.
She is a very quick and reliable damage dealer.
Over time she out paces my Knight with her quick dagger strikes.
I plan to keep her.

My first party is doing pretty well, I have breezed through most challenges.
We just rescued the Dwarves, and are getting ready to involve ourselves in the Human-Elf war.

My next question would be though, is it worth training the Sorceror and the Cleric in Light magic? It feels a little redundant, and it would enable my Sorceror to GM the elemental skills a little quicker.
#10aetherspoon(Moderator)Posted 5/8/2008 12:27:13 PM
Thieves and Monks are the best damage dealers in the game, so you're right on your instinct. True, a thief's magic is completely worthless, but you're not using a thief for its magic, right? :P

In general, you probably want to train both characters in Light Magic at some point. However, I prefer having Sorcerers GM Light before Clerics; yes, Sorcerers have more magic areas to handle, but they don't have any other way of healing. This way, you have both your Cleric and Sorcerer capable of healing, thus having a backup. On top of it, while your Sorcerer has four elemental areas to contend with, your cleric also has Merchant skill that he/she needs to GM, and that's probably more useful than GM Spirit, to be honest.

So really, it is more important to have ONE character GM Light than it is for anything else. While it would be better for it to be the Sorc, you can do it with the Cleric too. Eventually though, you'll want both characters with GM Light, if only for the double dose of Divine Intervention. After awhile, you'll probably be dumping a lot of points into one particular skill (that I won't mention due to spoilers) and have one of your two casters have a MUCH higher Light magic skill level than just GM/10.

After all, there is a benefit for having some ultra high levels of Light Magic...
http://screenshots.vandaliersheart.com/MM7/eat-my-spell-durations.gif
*cough* :P
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Resident junk computer part expert, owner of #aspoonedroom