If you could choose one country to control in a 6 player controlled tournament.

#1End_is_nearPosted 12/18/2012 12:16:50 AM
No alliances between any country including NA and Carleon. Take into account starting monsters, number of borders and number of knights. Questing is allowed by all players.

Esgares- Strongest knights at the start of the game. 5 promoted starting monsters Tiamat, VL, 3x Fenrirs. Most borders to defend.

Norgard-Very good knights all around. 3 promoted monsters 2x WD, and 1 fire jinn sorry name escapes me I play on GE. 3 borders to defend.

Caerleon- The powerhouse of magic, a little low on physical knights and knights in general. Only 2 easy borders to defend. Start of with triton and a coutal.

New Almekia- 3 borders to defend, starts of with a Salamander, nightmare, and stone golem. A country where physical knights shine, and they could use some more magic knights.

Leonia- Start off with holygriff, pegasus, phoenix. Only 2 borders to defend. Country leads towards holy knights.

Iscalio- A good balance of physical and magic knights. 3 borders to defend. Start of with bahamut, and gigas.

Which country do you think would have the best chance and what would you choosr.
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#2GarreynPosted 12/23/2012 4:50:24 PM
Caerleon. Mainly because Eloute is my favorite knight in the game and they have several good knights. Also they have a High Centaur.
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#38lackzPosted 12/25/2012 9:56:30 PM
New Almekia. Back down Your border. Keep Launch and Retreat the Stone Golem. then when it has become Talos.

it's Payback Bi***es!
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#4Sin JackalPosted 12/29/2012 3:26:18 PM
Esgares by far. That country shouldn't even be allowed if there was ever a tournament like that.

Borders to defend don't matter because you can just pile into another country's territory. There's no rule that says you have to keep everything you start with. I'd just pile up a few strong teams, and let the rest be taken as I relocate to a better area after claiming some good knights and an easily defensible territory from say, Caerleon. You can possibly attack and take New Almekia at the same time.

With both those countries you only have 2 borders to defend + a very strong core of knights. You can defend and attack with ease while everyone else has to deal with loose borders.

So yeah, Esgares for sure. Zemeckis alone would make opposing players not want to use their rulers against you. Then you also have Cador, Gish, Esclados, Esmeree, Soleil, Mira, Millet, Ranguinis, Siraha, damn dude. Even Eniede is pretty good. You also have some decent fillers in their little mages like Ivan, or FIel and Roecod. You can make 3 super teams filled with stacked knights right away, and you can make 4 really strong teams and potentially get a few more through quest if you're lucky to get them first.

Lame "project knights" would mean absolutely nothing in a game like that. No one's going to allow you to level them up. They're just going to be liabilities and exp fodder for the other guys unless they're mages.

That type of game setup (player vs player vs player) heavily favors countries that start strong, it also favors countries with a lot of mages. Which means New Almekia is actually not a good choice. They would get steamrolled if the Esgares player decided to focus on them with their best guys. Which is exactly what I'd do if I got Esgares. New Almekia would never get a chance to beef up Lance very much before getting destroyed.

Iscalio would be pretty solid, though they need more knights or to play smart to have a chance (building up Lucia, and switching Hula to an enchantress right away so she can get an AoE attack, then switch her back to master cleric, then make her a sorceress at lvl 11). Ulster would need to be switched to Mage too until he masters that. . But I could see them being pretty solid. They have a nice selection of AoE knights, and start with strong enough ones to defend well unless you get piledrived by Zemeckis, Cador, and Gish/Esclados or something.

Caerleon would be okay. . .at first. But I don't think they have enough to actually win. They can defend but don't really have enough to stretch out and attack. Leonia might be a surprisingly decent country if they stay alive long enough to make enough of their guys useful. The key to them, like Iscalio, would be to switch their priests to mages right off until they can at least master Geno Flame/Frost. Asmit and Paternus become so much more useful with the Geno Flame and Power spells. Georg is decent with them as well. The good thing about them is that their only "project knights" (aside from Baleen and Kiloph), are magic users. A very fortunate thing since they level up fast and without too much babysitting. Like I said before, if they can stay alive long enough to level up a bit (possible), they'd be decent.

Norgard is also very good but they're very knight-heavy which doesn't favor much against players. Too hard to utilize properly without making them too easy to kill. They'd all need to carry fairies and be Protected at all times if you wanna use them normally. I don't think they could win but they're one of the top 2-3 choices regardless. They start with their best melee fighters being high enough level to be a meat shield right away, yet have a handful of mages in their too. They would be the biggest force outside of Esgares.


I'd power rank them like this:


1: Esgares

big gap

2: Norgard

gap

3: Iscalio
4: Caerleon
^3 and 4 debatable

5: Leonia

6: New Almekia
#5Sin JackalPosted 12/29/2012 3:31:42 PM
The basic logic being that project knights are next to worthless against actual players. That reflects very badly against countries loaded with them. Potential doesn't mean much if you're getting piledrived by level 20-30 guys every turn and die within the first 5 months.

Countries that start strong simply have a huge advantage over those that don't. I give Leonia a bit of a pass since they have AoE healing, and several characters who can be flipped to mage for AoE attacks. They could perform pretty well against dumber players by abusing those spells.
#6004HAWKEYEPosted 12/31/2012 10:01:11 AM
I think Norgard would have a slight edge. I can usually cut down the Empire in a few attacks and then by balancing out the armies in place, it is fairly easy to push south in any manner I choose. Attacking New Almekia first cripples the rest of Forsena with exception to Iscalio and once Zemekis is gone, it is lights out for the rest.
Although Esgares would be a great, go to team; mid to end game, they seem to suffer down time, due to knight lose.
Esgares is a big contender to Norgard but due to their positioning , they are at a bit of a lose and the saying ' Surround and Engulf' comes to mind every time I see Esgares.
If Esgares can't break away from their position, their odds of winning decrease significantly.
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#7brigandine_punkPosted 12/31/2012 10:17:42 AM
I don't like the framing of the question. How can you expect a 6-player game to have no alliances involved? As soon as Esgares starts to get strong, it would be natural for the rest of the countries to truce and gang up on him. The only other option besides trucing would be to fight for 2nd place, and what's the point of that?

I like the idea of Esgares going all-out towards a corner of the map for security. And then trying to truce a neighbor (or two). I think Norgard and Leonia have the best positions, as I wouldn't expect that their neighbors would want to attack them for fear of stretching out their position too far. New Almekia would have to negotiate with Esgares from a position of weakness (imo). I'm 50/50 on Iscalio... hmm....
#8Sin JackalPosted 1/1/2013 8:52:58 PM
^ To be honest Punk, I don't think Esgares would even have to truce with anyone to advance if they capture New Almekia and Caerleon territory. They start right off with being able to make make 3 "super teams", and a 4th pretty solid team. Taking those two countries, they only have to defend two borders (easy with their knights), and can attack two other fronts. From one front, they can crack any defense. Of course, taking Caerleon gets them Janfadar too which helps their numbers out even more.

By then, some country is going to have gained some sort of advantage. Possibly Norgard since you would've ignored them early. Then you could turn your attention to them. Coincidently, many fo the guys at Esgares' disposal work well against Norgard's troops. Esgares has a perfect combination of AoE attacks and high rune power. Norgard is mostly stacked with melee knights. Unfortunately for them, their ruler is extremely weak against the Esgares ruler.

The reason Esgares is so powerful is really two-pronged. One: They have a lot of knights that start at powerful high levels. Many of them also have high rune powers, whether their level is high or not. Two: Their best 12 knights have either a ranged attack (Esclados, Zemeckis, Mira, Shiraha, Paradoll, Eniede), or can cast AoE spells (Zemeckis, Cador, Esmeree, Gish, Soleil, Ranguinis, Millet), or both (Zemeckis). Most of which are either level 20+ aleady or have 300+ rune power.

9 of the 12 start with 218 or more rune power, which is more than most country's guys start with after their top 3 or 4 knights. And again, all these guys can attack from range or cast an AoE spell. Against players, that's very important since you can fight more safely with your knights, unlike with melee-only knights.

And that's right away, not "once they level up 6-7 times", which is the case with Norgard. I look at Norgard, I see half their good knights are grapplers, cavaliers, and berserkers. Most of the other ones would die in one turn to a Powered/Reacted Zemeckis.


004HAWKEYE posted...
I think Norgard would have a slight edge. I can usually cut down the Empire in a few attacks and then by balancing out the armies in place, it is fairly easy to push south in any manner I choose. Attacking New Almekia first cripples the rest of Forsena with exception to Iscalio and once Zemekis is gone, it is lights out for the rest.
Although Esgares would be a great, go to team; mid to end game, they seem to suffer down time, due to knight lose.
Esgares is a big contender to Norgard but due to their positioning , they are at a bit of a lose and the saying ' Surround and Engulf' comes to mind every time I see Esgares.
If Esgares can't break away from their position, their odds of winning decrease significantly.


Yeah but bro, there's two probs with that thinking. What you're saying makes perfect sense if you're assuming Esgares and the rest are controlled by the computer. All I have to do to counter that is ask a simple question: Do you have any trouble with Norgard at all when you play as Esgares? I don't. Vaynard in particular (and yes I always say this), gets completely owned by Zemeckis. We aren't talking about Vaynard getting an in game year or year and a half to build up to Zemeckis' level, we're talking lvl 27 ass kicker Zemeckis and his two ted orbs and Power spell vs lvl 19 Vaynard and his blue orb.

How do your eyes not light up and a big smile not stretch across your face any time Norgard is dumb enough to use Vaynard against your Zemeckis at the beginning? I usually go out of my way NOT to kill him so i can get some monster kills in.

Norgard can attack Esgares if they're busy elsewhere, yes, but if it absolutely doesn't work if the Esgares player decides to attack you instead. You'll get steamrolled. Play as Esgares some night bro. . .then just decide to kill Norgard, ignoring your other borders. Watch how they melt like butter.
#9Sin JackalPosted 1/1/2013 10:09:05 PM
lol, sorry for seeming too into it and sure of my opinion bro.

Norgard is the second best country and a clear notch above everyone but Esgares. . .I'm not trying to make them sound awful or anything. Just, having played as every country multiple times, I am 100% sure Esgares is the best for steamrolling the map in the fastest time possible with like. .no problems at all, and no buildup or training really needed. You just start and start winning.

Norgard can't quite steamroll right off because they aren't loaded with ranged guys or AoE guys to cripple. You have to take a slower, more methodical approach which is supplicable to ranged tactics. The more time you take and the more melee guys you rely on, the worse it's going to be against countries like Esgares. They need their mid-level fighters to get to 20 before they're particularly good. Sadly, this is 4 of their best knights.

I'm confident I could annihilate a Norgard player if I focused on them with Esgares to start the game. I'd have too much of an advantage if I put my best guys to it. I would be worried if I was playing as Nogard and an Esgares player focused on me to start. There wouldn't be a lot I could do besides hope they'd screw up or hope I get lucky.
#10004HAWKEYEPosted 1/2/2013 9:47:59 AM
Sin Jackal posted...
lol, sorry for seeming too into it and sure of my opinion bro.

Norgard is the second best country and a clear notch above everyone but Esgares. . .I'm not trying to make them sound awful or anything. Just, having played as every country multiple times, I am 100% sure Esgares is the best for steamrolling the map in the fastest time possible with like. .no problems at all, and no buildup or training really needed. You just start and start winning.

Norgard can't quite steamroll right off because they aren't loaded with ranged guys or AoE guys to cripple. You have to take a slower, more methodical approach which is supplicable to ranged tactics. The more time you take and the more melee guys you rely on, the worse it's going to be against countries like Esgares. They need their mid-level fighters to get to 20 before they're particularly good. Sadly, this is 4 of their best knights.

I'm confident I could annihilate a Norgard player if I focused on them with Esgares to start the game. I'd have too much of an advantage if I put my best guys to it. I would be worried if I was playing as Nogard and an Esgares player focused on me to start. There wouldn't be a lot I could do besides hope they'd screw up or hope I get lucky.

I do know that Esgares is strong and capable of taking out Norgard but I usually never take Vaynard toward the middle. I guess it comes down to how much or how experienced a player is using Norgard. It would be quite an interesting match.

I guess it also comes down to whether you are using the NA version or the Japanese version. In the Japanese version gives significant bonus to Vaynard against Zemekis. Blue beats red(but you know that). Also the Esgares opponent would have to concentrate on Norgard to beat him, although if he was not overly successful, He will lose quickly. It really comes down to how good some one is with Norgard. If there ever were a tourny, I would love to participate and show Norgards strengths. It really comes down to their army composition and global positioning.
I think it would be a lot of fun to try; and would be tough to play against someone like you guaranteed!
Just remember that any good players using Cai and Lance know that their chance for survival would be to team up while attacking North-West through Esgares. Once they have Tora and Oltroute they can become the biggest army to contend with so attacking Norgard right off the bat, may be questionable.?
You gave a lot to mull over but I thought I would throw in my two cents bro. =]
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