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Calling All E2PG & Game Mechanics Experts!!!

#1camdad04Posted 1/24/2014 10:39:01 AM
Hey guys!

I need your expertise regarding a burning question I've had about CH&C for awhile now:

I've seen it mentioned a few times that leveling Choco's beak unlocks items that can be found -- can anyone confirm this, and shed some light on what items at what levels?

I'm mainly interested in the feasibility of Monkeyslinger's idea to skip Needle Fork stealing for Path B or C.

Does the Barette have to be unlocked at a certain beak level, or is it theoretically available during the first game of CH&C?


Any meaningful feedback would be greatly appreciated!
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I wish you good luck, little boy. You're going to need it.
#2Atomos199Posted 1/24/2014 1:07:10 PM
*waves*

So you're diving back into the PG challenge scene? Does this mean I can start making preparations for the grand 'welcome back' reception? :-)

As for the question, I've never heard this brought up (the thing with the beak LV, I do remember the Needle Fork skipping). I don't think anyone knows the mechanics better than Rebirth Flame, and he has posted that the accessories are 1/1024 with no mention of beak LV effects:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197338-final-fantasy-ix/55094310?page=2

But either way, what's your motivation for taking this route? Pure speed running, or are you looking to add something to the PG?
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I never gained supreme ulti-complete status. I projected my mind ca. 3 years into the future and realized it was going to be a waste of time.
~ bastardpoetry
#3monkeyslingerPosted 1/24/2014 2:51:39 PM
I guess it's my fault, haha. I've never heard anything about Choco's beak level unlocking items before, but then again, you've been around here a lot longer than I have.
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Read along as I pioneer a new stat path for the Final Fantasy IX Excalibur II Perfect Game!
http://ffixexiipgfinalequip.blogspot.com/
#4PibugoPosted 1/24/2014 3:16:44 PM(edited)
camdad04 posted...
Does the Barette have to be unlocked at a certain beak level, or is it theoretically available during the first game of CH&C?


Well, I'm not expert on neither, but I don't see why wouldn't it be possible.

Though, you've got serious balls if you are going to attempt it, I would stay far away, and I mean reeeeally far away.
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If something is frustrating, then it's hard.
There's no "it's not hard to do, it's just frustrating" in that case it's hard to do due to frustration.
#5camdad04(Topic Creator)Posted 1/24/2014 10:05:46 PM
Atomos199 posted...
*waves*

So you're diving back into the PG challenge scene? Does this mean I can start making preparations for the grand 'welcome back' reception? :-)


Yeah, I'm back to tie up a few loose ends - you know that feeling pretty well by now, right? ;)

Atomos199 posted...
But either way, what's your motivation for taking this route? Pure speed running, or are you looking to add something to the PG?


Atomos, you know with me it's gotta be a little of both!

monkeyslinger posted...
I guess it's my fault, haha.


TOTALLY you're fault! :P

I got the feeling from earlier discussions on this point that all of the merits of the idea weren't really flushed out fully.

Finding the Barette through CH&C could have several far reaching consequences through mid-disc 2 that are definitely worth exploring IMO. You've expounded on several of them through your discussion of your run. Even though the stat path is different, the advantages are pretty much the same. I'll list a few for those who aren't familiar with your blog:

1. 2400 Gil savings

This includes 600 Gil for the extra Barbut that doesn't need to be purchased, and 1800 Gil for the synthesis cost. The Needle Fork is a wash, because it will not be stolen then later consumed in synthesis.

2. Zaghnol / Needle Fork bypass

This one is obvious. We'll come back to this one later...

3. Fast and easy Type A battles * 3

This one is covered very well on your blog, so I'll refer everyone to it.

4. Better survival odds for Beatrix during the escape from Alexandria

Also covered nicely on your blog.

5. Dagger could use the strength boost during battles with Black Waltz 3 and Ralvurahva on disc 2

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All this, with only one major downside -- but when all is said and done, is it really a downside?

Let's take a look (and please correct my math if necessary!):

The chances of digging up a Barette are 1/1024. This applies every time you find a treasure to dig up.

After 1000 digs, the chances of finding a Barette are:

1 - ((1023/1024) ^ 1000) = 62.4%

Don't let this number intimidate you. After a little practice, it's reasonable to average 6 or more found treasures per game of H&HC. Since each attempt takes about 2 minutes, 1000 treasures would take around 5.5 hours to dig up.

If you're lucky, it may only take you 500 digs:

1 - ((1023/1024) ^ 500) = 38.6%

This would take less than 3 hours of resets to do.

Now, consider the earlier circuits mentioned that totally change because of the Barette, and consider the hours of resetting required to get perfect or even near perfect results in each of those circuits... the hours add up very quickly!

Zaghnol battle: ~ 2-3 hours

1st Type A battle: ~ 5 hours

2nd Type A battle: ~ 2 hours

3rd Type A battle: ~ 2 hours

Otherwise perfect yet failed attempts due to Beatrix biting it against the Bandersnatch pair in Alexandria!?: ~ a few dozen curse words and a hole in the wall :P

Oh, and BTW, did we mention it cuts 8-12 minutes off of in-game time? I guess you guys did cover that one before...

Yeah, definitely worth exploring further!
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I wish you good luck, little boy. You're going to need it.
#6Atomos199Posted 1/25/2014 4:43:20 AM
What are you planning on doing with the extra time, though?

<negativeNancy>

The current times give paths B and C 46 and 32 minutes of buffer time, respectively. So the need for perfect or even near perfect segments is not really there anymore, IMO. Unless you want to add things to the PG list like watching all ATEs and need the extra time? So for me, having an easier time getting perfect Type A battles or a perfect Alexandria escape isn't a benefit anymore since I don't need them to be perfect.

Maybe it's just me, but if I was playing through the challenge again I wouldn't hesitate to lose even up to 5 minutes on each of those difficult segments if I don't get better results within an hour or two. By using the buffer, I can get past those difficult parts in a kind of "brute force" manner by just taking the hit on the times. That can't be done with the Barette, you can't get past that problem by simply throwing in-game time at it.

I know it goes against the spirit of the speed run aspect, but in the end it's a PG run first and foremost. I don't see the point of finishing before 11:59:59 unless someone is looking to add that extra speed running challenge for fun and glory, but if they are, then that's wholly optional and a personal thing.

I feel like this is a bit like the NPOB. Very, very novel and exciting, but ultimately not competitive in terms of cost/benefit, and by cost I mean real-life time, and by benefit, in-game gains other than time (since there's plenty of extra time already).

</negativeNancy>
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I never gained supreme ulti-complete status. I projected my mind ca. 3 years into the future and realized it was going to be a waste of time.
~ bastardpoetry
#7handryspoofPosted 1/25/2014 6:37:56 AM
It's insane... If you ask me many things can be improved our time but must do insane things.. You know you can encounter ragtime mouse for extra gil, stealing ice staff from Gizamaluke, gamble yourself with matra magic, getting more robe of lords etc etc but yeah too much things to explain...
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Youtube --- S2CPG :playlist?list=PLBCB3CE3392687908 --Digimon Adv PSP: playlist?list=PLP7TvLWnx932-yRGvRvUAhXXyeFivbT-G
#8Atomos199Posted 1/25/2014 7:14:30 AM
Just to clarify: it's definitely 100% a good idea if you want to have the fastest possible time (like in your PAL videos). I was writing from more of a "PG guide/average player" perspective in my previous post.
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I never gained supreme ulti-complete status. I projected my mind ca. 3 years into the future and realized it was going to be a waste of time.
~ bastardpoetry
#9camdad04(Topic Creator)Posted 1/25/2014 7:29:53 AM
Atomos199 posted...
The current times give paths B and C 46 and 32 minutes of buffer time, respectively.


Don't forget Balanced Quina, which will eat most of that buffer for lunch...

I know it goes against the spirit of the speed run aspect, but in the end it's a PG run first and foremost. I don't see the point of finishing before 11:59:59 unless someone is looking to add that extra speed running challenge for fun and glory, but if they are, then that's wholly optional and a personal thing.


Hey, it's all good.

At the end of the day, we just have different things that excite us -- that's all.

As has been evidenced by the majority of my contributions to this subject, I am decidedly a speed runner.

Your big confession: game shark (oh, no!) :P

My big confession: I've never even completed one E2PG! I'm done the moment I see that sword in my inventory, because it's the challenge and demand for innovation that excites me...

I'm not advocating the Barette for everyone necessarily, but for those of us into the speed, it could be an attractive alternative to the current strategies, including total real-life time.

If I find out differently, I'll be sure and let you know! ;)
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I wish you good luck, little boy. You're going to need it.
#10monkeyslingerPosted 1/25/2014 10:06:21 AM
camdad04 posted...
Let's take a look (and please correct my math if necessary!):

The chances of digging up a Barette are 1/1024. This applies every time you find a treasure to dig up.

After 1000 digs, the chances of finding a Barette are:

1 - ((1023/1024) ^ 1000) = 62.4%

Don't let this number intimidate you. After a little practice, it's reasonable to average 6 or more found treasures per game of H&HC. Since each attempt takes about 2 minutes, 1000 treasures would take around 5.5 hours to dig up.

If you're lucky, it may only take you 500 digs:

1 - ((1023/1024) ^ 500) = 38.6%

This would take less than 3 hours of resets to do.

Now, consider the earlier circuits mentioned that totally change because of the Barette, and consider the hours of resetting required to get perfect or even near perfect results in each of those circuits... the hours add up very quickly!

Zaghnol battle: ~ 2-3 hours

1st Type A battle: ~ 5 hours

2nd Type A battle: ~ 2 hours

3rd Type A battle: ~ 2 hours

Otherwise perfect yet failed attempts due to Beatrix biting it against the Bandersnatch pair in Alexandria!?: ~ a few dozen curse words and a hole in the wall :P

Oh, and BTW, did we mention it cuts 8-12 minutes off of in-game time? I guess you guys did cover that one before...

Yeah, definitely worth exploring further!


Why didn't I think of doing the math on that? It's definitely looking a lot more attractive now for Path C with Balanced Quina. I was imagining an average of 20+ hours of resets to get the Barette.

I never looked into having Freya take the experience from all three Type A battles on Path B/C before, but I just did that and it turns out she can do it! The end-game setup is a little different from what I posted before, so I'll give the whole thing here:

Type A battle x3 (6 levels)

Iron Helm
Bronze Gloves
Linen Cuirass
Barette

Tantarian (11 levels)

Barbut
Mythril Gloves
Plate Mail
Barette

Pandemonium (7 levels)

Barbut
Venetia Shield
Minerva's Plate
Barette

Disc 4 (74 levels)

62 Barbut, 11 Kaiser Helm, 1 Lamia's Tiara
74 Venetia Shield
74 Minerva's Plate
55 Barette, 19 Pearl Rouge

By the way, you won't be able to get her up to level 8 in Cleyra like I did because you don't have quite as much wiggle room as on my path.
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Read along as I pioneer a new stat path for the Final Fantasy IX Excalibur II Perfect Game!
http://ffixexiipgfinalequip.blogspot.com/