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The orphanage scene and Ellone *SPOILERS*

#11rumblingrose(Topic Creator)Posted 7/20/2013 9:28:07 AM
peedeejay posted...
If a writer (or writers) needs to insert absurdity into a story for the story to string together properly than that should tell them that their story is probably already too absurd and needs some serious editing. What the writer should not do is throw their hands up to say, "Well, this whole thing is nuts already. Why not go just a little bit nuttier?"


Haha yeah, you're right. As I said earlier, I'm not trying to defend the scene as such, because I think it's stupid too. It seems to me that they thought up all the interesting elements first, and tried to fit the story around those elements, but didn't do such a great job of stitching it all together.
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#12phiefer3Posted 7/20/2013 7:15:04 PM
Ellone DOES send Squall back into Rinoa, there's no vagueness about it. That's specifically what he was asking for and what she said she would attempt to do, and in the end she sends Squall into Rinoa while she's floating out in space.

The "requirement" of Ellone only being able to send people she knows in the present into people she's met is from her perspective. That's all she's ever managed to do so she expresses it as her limit, rather than a limit of the power itself. In a sense it's the same as someone saying they can't drive, they don't mean that it's impossible for them to drive, just that they don't know how and that if they attempt to it'll probably be unsuccessful.

But after Squall's pleading and telling Ellone that he doesn't care about the consequences she agrees to try to send him into Rinoa, and she succeeds. The perspectives used do seem a bit 3rd person (but arguably so was our perspective of when Squall was inside Laguna :P as is the rest of the game) but that was more for our sake as we were being shown scenes of Rinoa realizing her feelings for Squall. They'd have been rather odd if we were to see them from a first-person perspective.

If Squall had been sent into Irvine or Zell, then I don't think his complaint would have been "you went back too far", it'd probably also have been "you didn't sent me into Rinoa". Plus, after that, when Squall gets to hear what she said to Seifer, he also saw Ultimecia's consciousness (who also saw him as well), which means that Squall must have been inside Rinoa, otherwise there's no way he could have been aware of her consciousness unless they were both in the same head at the same time.
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#13ViolentShadowPosted 7/20/2013 8:17:21 PM
A couple things:

*when Ellone sent Squall back into Rinoa out in space, she sent Squall to a time that occurred after she "met" Rinoa. The prison break scene and the ring borrowing scene could have been through Irvine and Zell's eyes or may not have been, but in either case, Ellone could have met Rinoa as early as the night of the dance scene on disc 1, but for sure as soon as here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK-yvmWj_Yg
if you didn't send her to the missile base. Ellone is in Balamb Garden from the beginning of the game until the White SeeDs come for her. And take note that Ellone hangs out in the library and when you have Rinoa with you but not in your party she hangs out in the library too.

*Junction-Machine-Ellone is supposed to work the same way as Ellone's power, so how is Ultimecia even able to use it at all? If it has the same restrictions as Ellone's power, then there's two cases for that to play out:
1--Ultimecia could only send herself back into someone SHE knew in the past, which is nobody.
2--Ultimecia could only send herself back into someone Ellone knew in the past, which explains why the machine has a limit but not why she can only possess sorceresses and why she can possess Rinoa if Ellone DIDN'T know Rinoa.

*For that matter, how is Ellone able to send Ultimecia back into the Adel of the past, since she knows the Adel of the past but not the Ultimecia of the future? Nobody has ever met Ultimecia yet at that point and nobody ever will until after time compression starts, unless sending Squall to the end of disc 2 battle and bumping into her consciousness counts.
#14rumblingrose(Topic Creator)Posted 7/21/2013 5:05:34 AM
Thanks for the answers. Yeah, it definitely was Rinoa that Squall was sent into. I was a bit premature in saying it was ambiguous. Phiefer is absolutely right, the way it plays out it seems that Ellone thought she could only send people she knew into other people she knew, but at Squall's insistence tries to connect him to Rinoa, and it works.

ViolentShadow brings up Junction Machine Ellone and the real Ellone's role in the plan at the end, and I have to admit, these two points bother me, too.

I read somewhere (maybe in the Time/Ultimecia FAQ) the suggestion that maybe JME only allows Ultimecia to go into sorceresses in the past because she 'knew' them in the sense that the sorceress power she has was inherited from them. That, or she actually could possess anybody, but chose sorceresses so as not to leave herself powerless.

Obviously, if Ellone figured out how to send people back into anybody (which she does with Squall and Rinoa), then it makes sense that JME in the future can do the same. But then, that raises questions like 'why didn't she just possess Squall and make him jump off a cliff or something?' (Okay, it wouldn't work because of the timeloop thing, but Ultimecia doesn't know that).
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#15ViolentShadowPosted 7/21/2013 7:05:58 AM
There's one more problem about JME too, actually. Maybe it's just that my memory is rusty and I told Odine no when he asked if I wanted to hear about it on my most recent playthrough...but I kind of always wondered why everyone was so ready to believe, "let Ultimecia accomplish her goal so that you can reach her to fight her," when it would be a lot more simple to believe, "this little turd built the technology on which Ultimecia is dependent to act in our time period--kill this turd, Ultimecia never gets her JME, everyone's happy." How soon would one have had to murder Odine to skip the rest of the plot altogether, and if he'd already made the machine how hard would it be to go authoritarian on his butt and destroy it & all records of its existence? Especially if you have "generations" to do so...
#16phiefer3Posted 7/21/2013 12:17:30 PM
ViolentShadow posted...
There's one more problem about JME too, actually. Maybe it's just that my memory is rusty and I told Odine no when he asked if I wanted to hear about it on my most recent playthrough...but I kind of always wondered why everyone was so ready to believe, "let Ultimecia accomplish her goal so that you can reach her to fight her," when it would be a lot more simple to believe, "this little turd built the technology on which Ultimecia is dependent to act in our time period--kill this turd, Ultimecia never gets her JME, everyone's happy." How soon would one have had to murder Odine to skip the rest of the plot altogether, and if he'd already made the machine how hard would it be to go authoritarian on his butt and destroy it & all records of its existence? Especially if you have "generations" to do so...


Generally, the idea of destroying the machine/killing Odine is considered to actually not accomplish anything because Ultimecia has already used it to interfere with the present, which in a sense means that the future has "already happened". It's sort of a reverse grandfather paradox, if destroying the JME prevented Ultimecia from getting it then she would have never been able to possess Edea and so nobody would know to destroy the JME, in fact it would mean that just about everything in the game wouldn't have happened, you'd never go to Esthar, Garden and SeeD wouldn't exist, etc.

Now there is the other thing you mentioned, regarding killing Odine before he makes the machine or encounters Ellone, but that still carries the same causality issues where changing the past like that would mean that you'd never have a reason to go back in time and kill him, effectively undoing the act again.

This is likely why the game takes the stance of "you can't change the past", which effectively means you can't change the present or the future either, hence the theme of "fate". This makes things much more straight forward, and I think creates a more satisfying ending when you think about it. It's implied in the game that Rinoa and Adel are the only sorceresses left in the world, and after Adel's defeat Rinoa is the only one left. If we take this as fact, it means that there'll only ever be 1 sorceress at a time (ie Rinoa, then when she dies whoever she passes her powers onto, then whoever that sorceress passes them to, etc until they eventually get passed down to Ultimecia). So Ultimecia is therefore the only sorceress in her time, but when defeated she doesn't pass her powers onto another person in her time, she gives them to Edea in the past. Which means there are no sorceresses left in Ultimecia's time, and there will never be another sorceress after her.

Now consider the purpose of SeeD? To fight and defeat "The Sorceress". Which is effectively an endless task because of the way powers are passed on, "ensuring" that there's always a sorceress who could potentially go bad. This is undoubtedly why Esthar came up with the idea to seal sorceresses, removing them as a threat without killing them and creating a new potential threat. But Ultimecia is the end of the line (as well as the start of the line when you consider the scene where Squall tells Edea about "her" idea to create SeeD), defeating Ultimecia removes that threat permanently.

So basically after the game ends with the big party in Garden, the future continues to unfold unchanged. SeeD continues to exist and fight any rogue sorceresses after Rinoa, eventually Ultimecia comes into power and conquers the world and then the "Lengendary SeeD" shows up and kills her.
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#17rumblingrose(Topic Creator)Posted 7/22/2013 10:43:33 AM
Once again, Phiefer makes a lot of good points. The suggestion of killing Odine or destroying JME never made any sense to me. If it was possible to change the past, present or future, it would render the entire game moot. If Ultimecia doesn't meddle in the present or appear in the past, then the events of the game never happened - Edea didn't receive Ultimecia's power, she didn't meet future Squall, SeeD was never created etc., which sounds to me almost as bad as the Squall is dead 'theory'.

It's never occurred to me before, but wouldn't it be nice if Square released a series of short stories, la the 'Case of...' FFVII books? I read the translation of the teacher's Hyne tale from the Ultimania. It was interesting, but there's plenty of other stories they could have told.

I'd like a short story (or OVA, film, manga etc) set in the future during Ulimecia's reign, maybe from the point of view of a SeeD candidate. S/He could be studying history for class around the time of Ulty's defeat, allowing him/her to inform us about the future of the sorceresses, how Squall and co are perceived, Ulty's rise to power, how junctioning has changed, JME, and, most importantly, how the future continues after the SeeDs from the past pop up to kick Ultimecia's butt.

Admittedly, right now the best we could hope for there is fanfiction, but it's something that's always bothered me. The ending of the game is happy, and all our characters live happily ever after, but there's still generations of fear and hatred and death ahead for SeeDs and the rest of the world. Even if they'd just given us hints during disc 4 about the future, like notes left by the dead SeeDs or something.

Does Time Compression completely sort itself out after Ultimecia's defeat? It does in the present, but what about the future? Does time continue after her death? Is there anybody left to enjoy it?
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#18GreenTreeClubPosted 7/23/2013 3:44:32 AM
I love FFVIII's story, but the GF-Memory Loss and Junction Machine Ellone was a rather clunky way to explain things.

As for the Orphanage scene though, I thought it was great. It's one of those scenes you never forget, just like the obvious scene in FFVII, the ball dance early in FFVIII, or or "This is my story" from FFX.
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#19ViolentShadowPosted 7/23/2013 8:34:16 AM
phiefer3 posted...



This is likely why the game takes the stance of "you can't change the past", which effectively means you can't change the present or the future either, hence the theme of "fate".


Right. But, putting Irvine's speech aside, Ellone says she found out that you can't change the past using her power. Ultimecia is using the "same" power, so how is she able to change the past by actually intervening in it rather than watching/observing like Squall & co were forced to do. Squall couldn't affect Laguna's actions at all. Ultimecia can throw people around like puppets.
#20rumblingrose(Topic Creator)Posted 7/23/2013 9:18:28 AM
ViolentShadow posted...
Right. But, putting Irvine's speech aside, Ellone says she found out that you can't change the past using her power. Ultimecia is using the "same" power, so how is she able to change the past by actually intervening in it rather than watching/observing like Squall & co were forced to do. Squall couldn't affect Laguna's actions at all. Ultimecia can throw people around like puppets.


Well first of all, if you believe the 'static time' theory spoken about in the Time FAQ (which I do), Ultimecia never actually changed the past, as everything always happened the way we see it and there's no alternate timeline where she didn't interfere.

Regardless of that, though, I see your point. JME and Ellone herself seem to demonstrate slightly different powers. JME allows Ulty to possess and control people, and either the machine won't let her possess just anybody, or she just chooses not to.

Of course, while Squall and co didn't actually change anything, their presence was known to Laguna and co (the talk of fairies improving their battle skills). Squall just didn't try to do or change anything. It could be that because Ultimecia had a purpose and knew she could affect the past, she was able to do it. Or it could just be because of her funky sorceress powers.
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