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Did Auron know about Tidus spoilers

#1Soul59Posted 9/19/2013 10:28:27 PM
Not really existing? Either I missed it or it's debatable.

I personally think he didn't, here is why.

Since Jecht didn't have a goal of breaking the Yu Yevon, Sin, Cycle, they might have had no need to warn him he was a dream and he would disappear if Sin and Yu Yevon were destroyed, and they never told Tidus about Yunalesca and stuff so they had no need of telling Jecht either.

They saw Tidus wasn't having none of that Summoner Self Sacrifice crap and decided to tell him the consequences in case he decided to change his mind, which he didn't.

However I can't explain Jecht's thoughts on seeing the Zanarkand Ruins, then going to dream Zanarkand and pulling Tidus out. I assume he thought he traveled back in time, or maybe he did ask the fayth and they did end up telling him. So I dunno maybe Auron did know somehow.

I just find this to be an interesting question.

Feel free to post nice thoughts.
He who fights and runs away, lives to not have the f****** moon fall on him as an alternative - Tacitus
#2BBK_KidPosted 9/19/2013 10:32:01 PM
It's possible that once he was possessed by Yu Yevon, Jecht became aware of what he was doing.

I think Auron probably knew there was something funky about DZ, perhaps even that it was somehow related to Sin, but nothing concrete.
Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst.
#3CalmlanderPosted 9/20/2013 5:39:18 AM
Nah, Auron and Jecth know about everything. After Tidus dream with Bahamut, Rikku wants some answers from Auron, but he refuses to tell anything (''Find your own answers'' or something like that)

Auron knew about the origin of Dream Zanarkand, the truth about Yevon, and the need of kill Jecth and send himself after the work is done.

He did all of that for the sake of Spira and all its people, like Yuna. In the end Tidus wants to do things for a greater good, too, so he accepts his sacrifice like something to must do.
100 goals with Shaami in 1 League!!!
#4KarifeanPosted 9/20/2013 7:05:32 AM
Honestly, I doubt ANYONE knew about Dream Zanarkand and its origin. Sure, Auron was there, so it's plausible that he also knows about its origins, but I don't think he does. He knew about Yevon's corruption, about how stupid the Final Aeon really is, that Tidus' Zanarkand really exists and that it's a real place, but I just don't think he ever knew about where Dream Zanarkand came from.

And it's a bit misleading to say he never existed. Aeons exist. They even go to the farplane (see Tidus' mother).
#5Soul59(Topic Creator)Posted 9/20/2013 10:01:15 AM
Woops, he did exist lol. He just wasn't alive in the exact sense of the word.
He who fights and runs away, lives to not have the f****** moon fall on him as an alternative - Tacitus
#6Vir27Posted 9/20/2013 7:29:08 PM
I think it's the easier interpretation to say Auron knew; and if he didn't it's like a secret subplot of epic stupidity that they destroyed DZ without even thinking about it. Auron's dialog makes the distinction "your Zanarkand" and he doesn't even blink when Sin is raiding the place. The others could recognize the wall of fayth outside Zanarkand, and so they (including Auron for some years) knew something was being summoned and Auron was in the best of possible positions to conclude what that summon was. Auron also knew that Jecht had become the fayth of the new Sin for some ancient Z/Yevon purpose. The kid Bahamut would have had the same motive and opportunity to contact Jecht as it had to contact Tidus and it does refer to Jecht, so it didn't overlook him. Jecht's resignation and claim he'd thought it all through suggests he understood his nature--if he did not understand his nature he made the biggest oversight ever in unwittingly setting in motion the annihilation of almost everyone he'd ever known. (And the game never hints at such a horrible plot thread, not that it covers its implications on this score very well.) Finally, having come and gone from both Z and DZ, both had to know it wasn't a normal place in Spira--why hadn't Sin destroyed it, if it wasn't special?

So how could Auron focus his life on what was going on with Z and Sin and spend all that time in DZ and not put 2 and 2 together?

In my opinion, the interesting bit is what did Jecht know?

To drop Auron off in DZ, he had to go near it. (It's not impossible but somewhat hard to imagine the dead old fellow being dropped a good way out into the ocean and swimming in: this scenario would imply that newly made Jecht-Sin knew the limits of its self-control without experience; it would also suggest some questions about how Sin's piloting works if it never comes near the place.) If he can't control Sin's city-destroying powers, then we would infer that he attacked DZ as he dropped Auron off there ten years ago the way he attacked it to pick him up. If he could control his city-destroying powers and so probably hadn't attacked it before (why would he before?), then that means he purposely attacked his city later when picking Auron up at the beginning of the game. In both scenarios, and as long as he wasn't super-tragically oblivious of the connection between his plan and his home, he knowingly took actions which lead to sacrificing his city and every one of thousands or millions (a huge city worth) of people like himself to stop Sin from tormenting strangers.

If Jecht can't control those powers and so only passively committed genocide on nearly everyone he'd ever known at the beginning of this game, then clearly DZ resets to a whole state when sufficiently damaged, or else Tidus would seem likely to remember the earlier attack which resulted from Sin having come near to drop Auron off. A resetting DZ has a whole different worm can of implications for what killing the inhabitants could mean. But even if Jecht couldn't help smashing DZ at the beginning of the game, that would imply that he knew he was going to do it again by returning there after having done it for Auron before, and so he went there knowing this action had the same consequence as actively attacking.
#7Vir27Posted 9/20/2013 7:41:16 PM(edited)
Again, if Jecht can control the powers and did it on purpose, then he chose to commit genocide actively. His plan with Auron seems to have been to get Tidus to help end the Sin summoning and--probably also the DZ dream summoning--forever, and he too would have been well aware of the Z fayth and their summoning something big, as well as DZ's being sort of world-inappropriate. The high five in the end certainly suggests Jecht-Tidus complicity with destroying DZ to me, so he must have known that whether he did it or he let Tidus do it, one of the two were going to cause the destruction everyone they'd ever known to stop Sins torturing Spira. You might object that maybe Jecht even at that rate did not think that DZ would be destroyed, but if so then his killing so many people there to pick up Tidus--whether he could control it and did it himself or knowingly went into a mass-murderous situation he could not control--is even more serious because as far as he'd know they could have lived! They were as real as he was and formed all but the final fraction of his own human life. If you don't like those interpretations for Jecht, Tidus bears all the responsibility because we know he knew what he was doing.

So almost any way I look at it Jecht knowingly took responsibility for killing almost everyone he had ever known both directly and indirectly and possibly more than once. Since he must have known this was to be the outcome of his choices one way or another, did he want DZ destroyed in the beginning of the game (whether it would reset or not) to burn that bridge for Tidus? Take the blood on his own hands, so if Tidus and Yuna might balk at ending so many lives, it's already done? It shouldn't have been an easy choice, after all: as we've seen how big and urbanly dense DZ appears to be and we know that Sin successfully keeps Spira's pop. small, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to figure that DZ was a significant fraction of the population of living beings on the planet, apparently as real and sentient as Tidus or Jecht, whom someone else decided to wipe out without warning to improve the quality of life and lifespan of others unknown to them. Even if you the gamer want to deny that DZ people were real in the same way later Tidus or Wakka were real, Tidus, the bulk of whose experience was as such a being, could not have solaced himself with the same existential excuses. At least if I found out all of my friends and I were not as real as some strangers, it wouldn't make snuffing them from existence easier on me.

If you wanted to say that neither Auron nor Jecht connected the fayth they'd seen at Z with the weird city DZ with which they were both quite familiar, then they wiped out all those dream people (who were real like Tidus and Jecht were real) in a total bungle and Tidus, who did know what he was doing, might unknowingly have been in a very awkward position right at the end there.

*high five*
in Jecht's mind: "Yea! We high fived because we saved everybody!"
in Tidus' mind: "Yea... We high fived because we saved Spira, even though we had to kill all our friends, neighbors, and everyone else like us."
*awkward karma*
#8Soul59(Topic Creator)Posted 9/20/2013 7:51:23 PM
I like reading all these theories, they're really interesting. *thumbs up*
He who fights and runs away, lives to not have the f****** moon fall on him as an alternative - Tacitus
#9Vir27Posted 9/20/2013 8:02:23 PM(edited)
Well, you'd said the Z fayth had no reason to inform Jecht on the basis of his goals, but how do they know what his goals are and if they can change them? If they thought he wouldn't help them, they certainly had no reason to hold back and wait for him to bring Tidus to them. If they wanted anything done at that time, he was their first and potentially only chance. Plus, as we see, whatever he knew about Z and DZ, he certainly did develop a goal of ending the Sin cycle. The Jecht spheres don't suggest he was all stubborn about it to me (and why would he be, especially if, as you thought, he was ignorant of the connection)?

I completely agree that this is theory since it's inferred based on verifiable game information, but I was trying to stick to inferences which follow from game information with a more-reasonable-than-not probability. If you think I am stretching it, please let me know so I can reconsider, because I have no interest in stretching it more than is necessary to solve a question which, as you bring up, the game certainly does leave open and which seems about as important as all the lives in DZ.

Also, I have brought this up in threads twice before over the years, in case anyone is curious.
#10Soul59(Topic Creator)Posted 9/20/2013 10:43:00 PM
I'm not trying to make anyone agree with anyone, the purpose is for people to just post their theories for fun. You can debate if you want, but I have nothing against anything posted. I think it's all fairly interesting.
He who fights and runs away, lives to not have the f****** moon fall on him as an alternative - Tacitus