Read this before posting for all story and DVD/UMD questions (Spoilers aplenty)

#21ArtragonPosted 6/10/2006 11:02:36 PMmessage detail
^Wrong, Sephiroth's body is made of Jenova's cells...the SOLDIERS are indeed enhanced by Jenova but Sephiroth is comprised by Jenova's cells
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Sig not changing until Ryu_Kaze comes back
#22cory droidPosted 6/11/2006 10:24:40 PMmessage detail
^Wrong, Sephiroth's body is made of Jenova's cells...the SOLDIERS are indeed enhanced by Jenova but Sephiroth is comprised by Jenova's cells
Because as you can clearly see, Sephiroth is Jenova, not a human. >_>
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MGS Board Prophet
#23Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 6/12/2006 8:05:01 AMmessage detail
Cory, Sephiroth is unique among Jenova cell recipients in that he was the only one to have received Jenova cells prior to his body developing. His body was a lump of tiny, soft tissue when Jenova's cells bonded with it. There wouldn't be a part of his body that doesn't consist of Jenova cells. Even his hair became the same color as Jenova's.

Given this fact, when you also consider the fact that Sephiroth became the "king of Jenova" as he's called at one point in Maiden who Travels the Planet (he gained Jenova's powers, including the ability to influence any and all Jenova cells), yes, his body is Jenova cells. Jenova is him because he is the consciousness that exists within Jenova's cells. The being Gast named "Jenova" no longer existed. There was only Sephiroth.

Jenova cells are Sephiroth's physical material and when his spirit -- goaded by his lingering will -- entered those cells, he returned. That's all there is to it. This isn't a case of Jenova cells randomly copying something for random reasons with a fake Sephiroth randomly coming up with a plan on the spot. I can't even imagine why you would think so considering that it is obviously a plan that had been in motion for quite some time (Geostigma) and required Sephiroth's disembodied will deliberately provoking it.

And, yes, DNA exists within FFVII's universe. Why would you think otherwise? Unless given an indication that such a thing doesn't exist, the status quo is what we know in the real world.

In any event, thank you for your feedback, but you're either splitting hairs over a certain take on the wording or just plain mistaken. Sure Sephiroth's cells would consist of Hojo and Lucrecia's DNA, but all of that would be mixed with the DNA of Jenova itself, a virus-like creature that contaminates other organic material. Sephiroth's body is Jenova's cells, and that's really all there is to it.


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==FFVII Ultimania Omega translations==
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_ultramania_omega.txt
#24Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 6/18/2006 12:33:13 PMmessage detail
Saving this before it gets purged.


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==FFVII Ultimania Omega translations==
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_ultramania_omega.txt
#25Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 6/22/2006 8:58:59 AMmessage detail
Another bump for this.


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==FFVII Ultimania Omega translations==
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_ultramania_omega.txt
#26cory droidPosted 6/25/2006 10:34:11 PMmessage detail
There wouldn't be a part of his body that doesn't consist of Jenova cells.
Care to offer up some evidence? Because it seems to me that we're both just taking stabs at the dark here, as neither of us know the specifications of what Jenova's cells do to a human body.

Even his hair became the same color as Jenova's.
Really? Are you talking about the statue on her container, or the actual Jenova?

Given this fact, when you also consider the fact that Sephiroth became the "king of Jenova" as he's called at one point in Maiden who Travels the Planet (he gained Jenova's powers, including the ability to influence any and all Jenova cells), yes, his body is Jenova cells.
Well, the UOG says anybody with Jenova cells in his/her body has these powers. It also says he focused through her cells, not through his own.

I can't even imagine why you would think so considering that it is obviously a plan that had been in motion for quite some time (Geostigma) and required Sephiroth's disembodied will deliberately provoking it.
Because Jenova's cells utilizing their mimic ability in FFVII:AC makes a lot more sense than Jenova cells containing the entirety Sephiroth's biological material.

And, yes, DNA exists within FFVII's universe. Why would you think otherwise? Unless given an indication that such a thing doesn't exist, the status quo is what we know in the real world.
Because it's fantasy, and in fantasy great lengths of scientific explanation are eschewed in favor of a sense of wonderment and mysticism.

In any event, thank you for your feedback, but you're either splitting hairs over a certain take on the wording or just plain mistaken. Sure Sephiroth's cells would consist of Hojo and Lucrecia's DNA, but all of that would be mixed with the DNA of Jenova itself, a virus-like creature that contaminates other organic material.
It's not splitting hairs. You're claiming that Jenova has Sephiroth anatomy inherently within her. Everything in the game in contradictory to this, as Sephiroth is a product of the merging of Jenova cells and a fetus. The key word here is fetus; this is human bioligical material. There would be no Sephiroth without said fetus.

I'm trying to understand why Kadaj needs Jenova cells in order to become Sephiroth. Your explanation doesn't explain this to me. That Sephiroth was a fetus when he had Jenova cells implanted in him doesn't lead me to believe that Sephiroth is entirely made of Jenova cells; or even mostly. He was a human fetus when implanted with these cells, and he grows into a human being.

You admit yourself that Sephiroth's "DNA" would not be entirely Jenova's, and if DNA is the basic building block of Sephiroth, then that human DNA must program something. Being part Jenova isn't equal to being Jenova.

Sorry if I sound like I'm being hostile or argumentative but your explanation still doesn't make much sense to me.
#27Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 6/26/2006 5:30:13 AMmessage detail
cory droid: Care to offer up some evidence? Because it seems to me that we're both just taking stabs at the dark here, as neither of us know the specifications of what Jenova's cells do to a human body.

We know that 1) Jenova cells can expand, 2) that introducing something to as small a human form as a fetus is going to have some large effect on it in the event that it doesn't outright kill it, 3) Jenova's cells previously caused other organisms to mutate (which suggests to us that the cells have something of a contaminant factor), and 4) Sephiroth's hair became the same color as Jenova's (which tells us his DNA has been altered).


cory droid: Really? Are you talking about the statue on her container, or the actual Jenova?

The actual Jenova. The blue thing with a female appearance. That thing has silver hair.


cory droid: Well, the UOG says anybody with Jenova cells in his/her body has these powers.

Not exactly:

"This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form."

Sephiroth, on the other hand, obviously had the full range of these powers.


cory droid: It also says he focused through her cells, not through his own.

Which reads a lot better. In any event, in AC Vincent refers to Jenova cells and the "Sephiroth element" as the same thing.


cory droid: Because Jenova's cells utilizing their mimic ability in FFVII:AC makes a lot more sense than Jenova cells containing the entirety Sephiroth's biological material.

How does that make more sense, given that Jenova's a virus, it contaminates things, and it contaminated Sephiroth before he was ever born? We already know it changed him. Just look at his hair. Or his eyes for that matter. Or the fact that he can even control Jenova's cells.


cory droid: Because it's fantasy, and in fantasy great lengths of scientific explanation are eschewed in favor of a sense of wonderment and mysticism.

They usually tell you, though, where you should have a sense of wonder and mysticism. Fantasy elements more often than not are given a mechanical plausibility within stories so that they will make sense to us on a logical level. We can usually assume that things are as we know them until we're shown that it's not the case.

Given that the word "biological" would even be used in reference to Hojo and Lucrecia's parentage of Sephiroth, it stands to reason that DNA exists in FFVII's world. There's also, again, the case of Sephiroth's silver hair.


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==FFVII Ultimania Omega translations==
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_ultramania_omega.txt
#28Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 6/26/2006 5:30:21 AMmessage detail
cory droid: You're claiming that Jenova has Sephiroth anatomy inherently within her. Everything in the game in contradictory to this, as Sephiroth is a product of the merging of Jenova cells and a fetus. The key word here is fetus; this is human bioligical material. There would be no Sephiroth without said fetus.

What I'm saying is that Sephiroth's biological material was contaminated with Jenova's to the point that it might as well be his own. Jenova is a virus. Viruses contaminate things. Mutate them. We don't know how much, if any, of Sephiroth's original genetic code was even in play after that. What we do know is that he got Jenova's hair, some freaky eyes, and some screwy powers.


cory droid: You admit yourself that Sephiroth's "DNA" would not be entirely Jenova's, and if DNA is the basic building block of Sephiroth, then that human DNA must program something. Being part Jenova isn't equal to being Jenova.

He would have started out as not entirely Jenova, of course, but after his small squishy form was contaminted with those cells, I can't imagine a single trace of his body escaping exposure. In any event, given what we see him do in the original game and in the movie itself, that tells us just fine that Jenova cells are -- at the very least -- part of his body. He's been using them as his body for quite some time now.


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==FFVII Ultimania Omega translations==
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_ultramania_omega.txt
#29cory droidPosted 6/28/2006 8:28:56 PMmessage detail
We know that 1) Jenova cells can expand, 2) that introducing something to as small a human form as a fetus is going to have some large effect on it in the event that it doesn't outright kill it, 3) Jenova's cells previously caused other organisms to mutate (which suggests to us that the cells have something of a contaminant factor), and 4) Sephiroth's hair became the same color as Jenova's (which tells us his DNA has been altered).
Yes, but this does not explain the original statement that Sephiroth is “basically Jenova.” You can’t simply say A)Jenova cells were added into Sephiroth anatomy during his gestation B) Therefore, Jenova is Sephiroth (biologically) unless you know that said Jenova cells would take over the process of said biological development, and even then you would have to prove what it is inherent in said cells that could do the whole process again (as we see in AC).


The actual Jenova. The blue thing with a female appearance. That thing has silver hair.
I’m not sure which iteration of Jenova you are referring to. Which one has silver hair?

http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/ff7charpic5.shtml#jenova

Not exactly:

Sephiroth, on the other hand, obviously had the full range of these powers.

Now who’s splitting hairs? ^_^
The trait under question was not to what extent Sephiroth exhibited Jenova powers, but whether the exhibition of these powers was evidence of Sephiroth being composed of Jenova cells. All I said was that possession of said powers is not evidence that Sephiroth was made entirely -or mostly- of Jenova cells.

Which reads a lot better. In any event, in AC Vincent refers to Jenova cells and the "Sephiroth element" as the same thing.
This is my interpretation of his meaning:
Vincent says Sephiroth’s gene (his biological material) is the same as Jenova’s mimetic legacy, that the two terms are interchangeable. Well to me, Sephiroth was her mimetic legacy in that the origin of his entire being was merely an attempt at an emulation of her. Of course, this was only partly true, because at the time his genesis was considered an emulation(a mime) of the ancients[and their abilities]. He turned out an emulation of Jenova’s abilities.

Another possible interpretation is that by “mimetic legacy” the inhabitants of the FFVII world (Gaia?) mean to refer to the mimetic properties of her biological material: how they project/morph into mimes of the thoughts of those they come into contact with. Sephiroth’s genes and Jenova’s cells both can do this.

Anyways, the line reads “5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream...and where he would begin the Reunion...by focusing through Jenova's cells.” If you parse that, you get two subjects, one who does the action (Sephiroth) and that which the action is taken upon, or through(her cells.) Does this read the same in Japanese?
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#30cory droidPosted 6/28/2006 8:31:12 PMmessage detail
How does that make more sense, given that Jenova's a virus, it contaminates things, and it contaminated Sephiroth before he was ever born? We already know it changed him. Just look at his hair. Or his eyes for that matter. Or the fact that he can even control Jenova's cells.
Because we’re not talking about Sephiroth here, we’re talking about manifestations of his thoughts/consciousness/will. On one hand, we have remnants of Sephiroth’s thoughts, on the other we have cells which can read thoughts and actualize them. If from the combination of these two, we get a physical manifestation of a deceased(and remembered) being, then it’s not too far out to suggest that the product of these two is the result of said mimic ability.

They usually tell you, though, where you should have a sense of wonder and mysticism. Fantasy elements more often than not are given a mechanical plausibility within stories so that they will make sense to us on a logical level. We can usually assume that things are as we know them until we're shown that it's not the case.
No, they don’t. The sense of wonder and mysticism invites itself into the work of art. You can’t blur the line between fantasy and reality, just so that you can arbitrarily choose which explanations of things are true in order to support your ideas.

Having said that, having your own ideas about a work are perfectly fine, provided that when you espouse them, you state them as such.(not as the authoritative explanation to a question about the story.) And I like your ideas here on why Kadaj needed Jenova’s cells. Though I don’t entirely agree with them, I’m glad you’re here trying to elucidate on some of the obscurities in FFVII:AC’s plot. (And there are MANY!)

Given that the word "biological" would even be used in reference to Hojo and Lucrecia's parentage of Sephiroth, it stands to reason that DNA exists in FFVII's world. There's also, again, the case of Sephiroth's silver hair.
Good point.

What I'm saying is that Sephiroth's biological material was contaminated with Jenova's to the point that it might as well be his own. Jenova is a virus. Viruses contaminate things. Mutate them.
Jenova in itself is not a virus; the biological material Kadaj ingested was not viral material, it was Jenova cells. Jenova infected those around her with her virus. There is Jenova, a sentient being, and the virus she produces which she uses to wipe out a species. And while we are on the subject of viruses- viruses cannot survive without a host, something to “manifest” in. If we are to believe your current analysis of Sephiroth, then Sephiroth could not be what he is without a host (Lucretia and Gast’s fetus) and said Jenovian virus.
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