Read this before posting for all story and DVD/UMD questions (Spoilers aplenty)

#31cory droidPosted 6/28/2006 7:32:01 PMmessage detail
We don't know how much, if any, of Sephiroth's original genetic code was even in play after that. What we do know is that he got Jenova's hair, some freaky eyes, and some screwy powers.
That’s my whole point; we don’t know. You’re just saying that Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells when he was a fetus, therefore he is Jenova cells.(or “mostly” or whatever other equivocation). You also left out that we know that Sephiroth looks like a human, behaves like a human, has a will to power like a human, and perceived himself to be a human most of his life (albeit a bit “better” than most humans.)

He would have started out as not entirely Jenova, of course, but after his small squishy form was contaminted with those cells, I can't imagine a single trace of his body escaping exposure. In any event, given what we see him do in the original game and in the movie itself, that tells us just fine that Jenova cells are -- at the very least -- part of his body. He's been using them as his body for quite some time now.
We haven’t been discussing whether or not Jenova is a part of Sephiroth this entire time; that much is obvious. What I’m questioning is the logistics of Jenova’s biological material becoming Sephiroth, seeing that Sephiroth isn’t entirely a Jenova-based being. Simply because part of her contaminated and enhanced a body of human cells in the past, doesn’t mean that the product of said contamination is a part of her.
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MGS Board Prophet
#32sephiroth5086Posted 6/28/2006 7:47:17 PMmessage detail
I agree with what Squall_of_SeeD has in his plot analysis: that Sephiroth is the next generation of Jenova and also that Jenova itself is simply a virus.

Therefore, I think that the term "Jenova cells" simply refers to any cells that have been contaminated with the Jenova virus.

So... yes, naturally, Sephiroth's cells as a fetus were his and contained his own DNA, but when they were introduced to other Jenova cells, and thus to the Jenova virus, they became infected. And in being infected with the Jenova virus, they could then be classified as "Jenova cells". And since he was in the very early stages of development, I think it would stand to reason that his entire body became infected and became "Jenova cells". In which case, all of his physical being could probably be classified as "Jenova cells".

As for his DNA, it was most likely altered by the Jenova virus as well, given the fact that, as Ryu has pointed out, Sephiroth's hair became the same color as Jenova's.

That's... just my opinion... just my interpretation on this issue... I'd rather not get sucked into this argument... -_-
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"When you need to state your religious beliefs as fact in order to stay in an argument, you may as well give up." ~ Max123
#33Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 6/29/2006 7:33:27 AMmessage detail
cory droid: Yes, but this does not explain the original statement that Sephiroth is “basically Jenova.”

With the consciousness of the original Jenova gone, ownership of the cells has pretty much passed to Sephiroth. He used them as his body repeatedly throughout FFVII, and given their role in his biological composition, he is, for lack of a better phrase, the only Jenova that exists.


cory droid: You can’t simply say A)Jenova cells were added into Sephiroth anatomy during his gestation B) Therefore, Jenova is Sephiroth (biologically) unless you know that said Jenova cells would take over the process of said biological development, and even then you would have to prove what it is inherent in said cells that could do the whole process again (as we see in AC).

But, again, we already know that the cells have altered his DNA, at the very least adding a "Jenova strain" to them. Added to the fact that it is Sephiroth who dominates the Jenova cells in FFVII and the fact that his will continues to be felt through them in AC, and they are his. They belong to him and him alone until his will was broken for good.

Also, something else I'd like to point out is that his cells can't exactly be considered normal as things stand. Jenova's cells can be cut into pieces, yet can still reunite, correct? According to the Reunion Files and Ultimania Omega, Sephiroth's body dissolved after he fell into the Lifestream five years before the game started, but because his will was strong enough and he refused to let himself die, he was able to piece it back together in the Northern Cave.

Now, perhaps I shouldn't assume that an ordinary human body couldn't be placed back together like that, but given that we know this sort of regeneration is a property of Jenova's cells, I would think it fair to assume that Sephiroth was able to put it back together like that because of his unique anatomy. What would you think?


cory droid: I’m not sure which iteration of Jenova you are referring to. Which one has silver hair?

Again, the blue one in a female form inside the Mt. Nibel mako reactor. The one that Sephiroth beheads.


cory droid: The trait under question was not to what extent Sephiroth exhibited Jenova powers, but whether the exhibition of these powers was evidence of Sephiroth being composed of Jenova cells. All I said was that possession of said powers is not evidence that Sephiroth was made entirely -or mostly- of Jenova cells.

My point was that Sephiroth's not in the same league as people who simply are carrying some Jenova cells around inside them. They not only seem to rarely be able to access these powers, but they're also in a much less potent form than they would be in Jenova or Sephiroth's hands. The issue of his powers is just another thing that I was pointing out to reiterate the fact that the only Jenova in FFVII now is Sephiroth.


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==FFVII Ultimania Omega translations==
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_ultramania_omega.txt
#34Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 6/29/2006 7:34:29 AMmessage detail
cory droid: Another possible interpretation is that by “mimetic legacy” the inhabitants of the FFVII world (Gaia?) mean to refer to the mimetic properties of her biological material: how they project/morph into mimes of the thoughts of those they come into contact with. Sephiroth’s genes and Jenova’s cells both can do this.

...On one hand, we have remnants of Sephiroth’s thoughts, on the other we have cells which can read thoughts and actualize them. If from the combination of these two, we get a physical manifestation of a deceased(and remembered) being, then it’s not too far out to suggest that the product of these two is the result of said mimic ability.


None of this addresses one of the questions I originally posed: we know that Sephiroth's will was actively goading the SHM to find Jenova's remains so that he could come back, and it was also its resonance in the Jenova cells that prompted people's bodies to begin seeing Jenova's cells as an invader that needed to be expelled. Which was all according to Sephiroth's plan to contaminate the Lifestrean and control the planet.

Your suggestion -- if I understood it correctly -- calls for disregarding the notion that the Sephiroth Cloud fights at the end of AC was aware on some level all this time and planning Geostigma. It even disregards the notion that this is actually him. That this mimicked Sephiroth would just randomly appear and know all the things he knows while the real him is unaccounted for undermines the basic plot elements of the story. Unless you're only trying to suggest that he was able to give the cells his form because of their shapeshifting attributes, in which case, all of us expected nothing else, I'm sure.

In any event, Kadaj is part of Sephiroth's spirit, his living will. He is a physical manifestation of this, and when his energy bonded to Jenova's cells, Sephiroth returned. This is more than just the cells randomly mimicking things. This is Sephiroth's spirit entering a physical vessel that allows him to live again.


cory droid: Anyways, the line reads “5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream...and where he would begin the Reunion...by focusing through Jenova's cells.” If you parse that, you get two subjects, one who does the action (Sephiroth) and that which the action is taken upon, or through(her cells.) Does this read the same in Japanese?

Yes, it does, but I'm not seeing the relevance of the matter. Jenova's cells are largely a plot element. They're called "Jenova's cells." That's where they came from, what they're called. Randomly renaming them wouldn't make sense. They continue to be referred to as "Jenova's cells" even into AC, where they're given a correlation with Sephiroth's "element."


cory droid: No, they don’t. The sense of wonder and mysticism invites itself into the work of art. You can’t blur the line between fantasy and reality, just so that you can arbitrarily choose which explanations of things are true in order to support your ideas.

You can't assume that everything has been changed from the status quo of the real world until we're given reason to either, or it's impossible to view a fantasy story. If you assume that people cannot fly, that they cannot breathe underwater, that they have the same tolerances to heat and cold that we do, then things are a lot more logical and run a lot more smoothly.


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==FFVII Ultimania Omega translations==
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_ultramania_omega.txt
#35Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 6/29/2006 7:35:21 AMmessage detail
Assuming that the status quo isn't the same brings up absurd questions like "Why are these characters cold in this frozen wasteland?" when the answer is obviously "They have the same tolerances to cold that we do in the real world. Why would you think otherwise?" When someone does fly, though, or they do swim underwater without fear of drowning, or they display extreme tolerance to the elements, we know that the status quo doesn't apply to them.

And, honestly, in Fantasy stories, how often is the status quo different with the ordinary people? The people who have magical powers and can do super human things usually have explanations behind them explaining why they can do these things. Plot elements like "They're the child of magical beings/the child of a magical being and a human," "They're an alien," or "They're using these shiny magical rocks."


cory droid: Jenova in itself is not a virus; the biological material Kadaj ingested was not viral material, it was Jenova cells.

What I'm suggesting is that those are one and the same.


cory droid: And while we are on the subject of viruses- viruses cannot survive without a host, something to “manifest” in.

Any biological material ever assimilated into or ever part of the creature would qualify, wouldn't it? There are such things as viral cells. Cells which are infected and act just like the virus that they're infected with, and from which one could not possibly seperate the virus. Take cancer cells as an example: you couldn't seperate the cancer mutation from the cancer-infected cells. It becomes what they are. It can even become an inert part of people's DNA that will activate in their children.

Anyway, these cells don't have the same limitations as the virus alone. While they do invade, infect, and mutate other organisms (such as surrounding cells), they can replicate themselves through cellular division. In other words, they can reproduce on their own. A virus alone needs some cells to bond with, and once it has found them, so long as there is organic material that it can infect, it will keep growing until it's been destroyed.

Jenova's status as a viral creature also explains to us partly why the thing can shapeshift as it does: it expands because that's what viral cells do. If you misinterpreted what I said as meaning that Jenova is only a virus (a bunch of genetic material inside a protein sac), then I apologize, as what I meant was that it is a collection of cells laden with its virus. In that respect, however, the creature is merely a viral entity. It's a giant cancer cell.

Which is an appropriate analogy, I think, given that Ifalna said the planet could never fully heal itself so long as Jenova remained.


cory droid: You’re just saying...than most humans.)

When I say this, I mean it the way Squall of SeeD did (which sephiroth5086 mentioned): he is the evolved -- or, more accurately, mutated -- Jenova.


cory droid: Simply because part of her contaminated and enhanced a body of human cells in the past, doesn’t mean that the product of said contamination is a part of her.

Again, given what we've seen in FFVII and AC, it's fair to say that this human Jenova's cells infected is all that there is of her. Sephiroth's will is the will that ruled Jenova's cells. He was the only Jenova there was at that point, and he made a habit of using those cells as casually as he would his own body: in fact, he used them as his own body on numerous occasions.


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==FFVII Ultimania Omega translations==
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_ultramania_omega.txt
#36cory droidPosted 7/1/2006 9:32:55 PMmessage detail
With the consciousness of the original Jenova gone, ownership of the cells has pretty much passed to Sephiroth. He used them as his body repeatedly throughout FFVII, and given their role in his biological composition, he is, for lack of a better phrase, the only Jenova that exists.
That’s not what I meant, what I meant was that statement you originally made about the original Sephiroth being “basically Jenova” anatomically still hasn‘t been explained. You’ve yet to provide evidence for your belief that the addition of Jenova cells to Sephiroth’s fetus made him “basically” Jenova. This is only supposition on your part.

But, again, we already know that the cells have altered his DNA, at the very least adding a "Jenova strain" to them. Added to the fact that it is Sephiroth who dominates the Jenova cells in FFVII and the fact that his will continues to be felt through them in AC, and they are his. They belong to him and him alone until his will was broken for good.
So because he is focusing his will through them, they are what he is?

Now, perhaps I shouldn't assume that an ordinary human body couldn't be placed back together like that, but given that we know this sort of regeneration is a property of Jenova's cells, I would think it fair to assume that Sephiroth was able to put it back together like that because of his unique anatomy. What would you think?
If that we the case, don’t you think they would’ve added a “thanks to being composed mostly of Jenova cells” clause to the information about Sephiroth’s reformation?

Again, the blue one in a female form inside the Mt. Nibel mako reactor. The one that Sephiroth beheads.
I just posted a link containing a picture of this Jenova. There is no silver hair in it.

My point was that Sephiroth's not in the same league as people who simply are carrying some Jenova cells around inside them. They not only seem to rarely be able to access these powers, but they're also in a much less potent form than they would be in Jenova or Sephiroth's hands. The issue of his powers is just another thing that I was pointing out to reiterate the fact that the only Jenova in FFVII now is Sephiroth.
In my opinion, this would have more to do with Sephiroth’s immense will than how much of him is composed of Jenova, though. No matter how you break it down, what you are suggesting is that Sephiroth is a human consciousness in a Jenova-virus-mutated body, right? Well, Jenova must communicate with her severed cells telepathically, so it is with Sephiroth. His telepathic will.

and it was also its resonance in the Jenova cells that prompted people's bodies to begin seeing Jenova's cells as an invader that needed to be expelled. Which was all according to Sephiroth's plan to contaminate the Lifestrean and control the planet.
No, the lifestream in the bodies of humans fought back against the Jenova remains because they were alien matter, not because of Sephiroth’s consciousness was calling out from them.
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MGS Board Prophet
#37cory droidPosted 7/1/2006 9:35:35 PMmessage detail
Your suggestion -- if I understood it correctly -- calls for disregarding the notion that the Sephiroth Cloud fights at the end of AC was aware on some level all this time and planning Geostigma.
No, it isn’t. The illusion/manifestation(because we know Jenova can form physical representations of Sephiroth) projected by the Jenova cells were only projected through Kadaj. Subconsciously, the will of Sephiroth was still there. The ideation pathway would go like this:

Original Sephiroth’s Will-->Kadaj-->Jenova Cells-->Physical Manifestation of Sephiroth.

It even disregards the notion that this is actually him.
So simply because Sephiroth was acting through the “ghost Sephiroth” projected by the body of Jenova in FFVII, it wasn’t actually Sephiroth the heroes were dealing with?

That this mimicked Sephiroth would just randomly appear and know all the things he knows while the real him is unaccounted for undermines the basic plot elements of the story.
That the real him is no more is one of the basic plot elements of the story. All that remains are memories, emulations, and reincarnations of him.

Unless you're only trying to suggest that he was able to give the cells his form because of their shapeshifting attributes, in which case, all of us expected nothing else, I'm sure.
That’s exactly what I’m saying: the shape shifting attributes are Jenova’s mimic ability. Sephiroth was able to act through Kadaj, wearing the “illusionary” armor of his old visage, actualized by the cell’s mimic abilities.

Yes, it does, but I'm not seeing the relevance of the matter.
The relevance is that Jenova and Sephiroth were, and always have been, considered two different entities in the FFVII universe, though working in collusion. That they are “basically the same” is merely an interpretation.

Jenova's cells are largely a plot element. They're called "Jenova's cells." That's where they came from, what they're called. Randomly renaming them wouldn't make sense. They continue to be referred to as "Jenova's cells" even into AC, where they're given a correlation with Sephiroth's "element."
To work through something means to use that as an extension of yourself, as a tool. Renaming them wouldn’t be necessary if your point is correct, the guide could have easily explained that Sephiroth’s body was mostly or all Jenova cells, therefore he could wield them just as easily as he could his arm or eyes; but it doesn’t. It states that he focuses through them. That means to hone in on, to exert a great mental effort upon.
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MGS Board Prophet
#38cory droidPosted 7/1/2006 9:36:28 PMmessage detail
You can't assume that everything has been changed from the status quo of the real world until we're given reason to either, or it's impossible to view a fantasy story. If you assume that people cannot fly, that they cannot breathe underwater, that they have the same tolerances to heat and cold that we do, then things are a lot more logical and run a lot more smoothly.
Who says I’m assuming everything? Were I to do that, then the second the game loaded I would be dumbstruck by the fact that the game uses the same colors, forms, materials, and objects as the real world. When immersing into a fantasy world, It’s best to view things “as they are,” not “as they should be.”

And, honestly, in Fantasy stories, how often is the status quo different with the ordinary people? The people who have magical powers and can do super human things usually have explanations behind them explaining why they can do these things. Plot elements like "They're the child of magical beings/the child of a magical being and a human," "They're an alien," or "They're using these shiny magical rocks."
None of the above really conforms to the “status quo” of the real world, though, as there are no magical beings, no aliens (that we know of), and no shiny magical rocks. So there still persists the question of “how do those work?” Furthermore, the settings themselves, being alternate universes, throw out just about all the scientific and idealistic presuppositions that attach themselves to the things we observe.

What I'm suggesting is that those are one and the same.
If that were true, then all the members of SOLDIER, and Sephiroth himself would have mutated into monsters. You’re saying Jenova’s virus went in and mutated Sephiroth when he was an infant. Why then does his Jenovian anatomy still develop into that of a human’s? Doesn’t the Jenova virus mutate those it infects into monsters?


Any biological material ever assimilated into or ever part of the creature would qualify, wouldn't it?
But Sephiroth was never a part of the Jenova cells Kadaj ingested. Jenova had cells cut from her, placed into Sephiroth, and then later on Jenova had cells cut from her and placed into Kadaj. Sephiroth only controlled Jenova with his will, he never became her physically.

When I say this, I mean it the way Squall of SeeD did (which sephiroth5086 mentioned): he is the evolved -- or, more accurately, mutated -- Jenova.
Again, that’s an interesting interpretation, but I don’t think it’s definitive. I’ve read Squall of SeeD’s analysis, and his reinterpretation of Sephiroth puts far too much emphasis on the destructive aspect of Sephiroth’s character (saying it was just an extension of Jenova’s destructive intentions) without taking into the account the transcendental, will to power aspect of his character. Yes, Sephiroth wanted to wipe the world out, but only as a means to an end; a means to become a god.
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MGS Board Prophet
#39cory droidPosted 7/1/2006 9:37:02 PMmessage detail
Again, given what we've seen in FFVII and AC, it's fair to say that this human Jenova's cells infected is all that there is of her. Sephiroth's will is the will that ruled Jenova's cells. He was the only Jenova there was at that point, and he made a habit of using those cells as casually as he would his own body: in fact, he used them as his own body on numerous occasions.
That’s another thing that is dependent highly upon your own beliefs. If you take a wooden boat and replace one plank from it every 10 years for 1000+ years until it is the same form but of different wood, it would fall to your interpretation whether it is the same boat.

We need to cut to the heart of this matter. I don’t want this to degenerate into two people endlessly repeating and reaffirming their view at each other. God knows there’s enough of that on the internet. I actually don’t think our points of view are that different. I think the answer to my question of what of Sephiroth was inherent in Jenova’s cells was the same as your’s: the mimic/mutation ability. The only difference is the pathway through which this occurs; you perceive it to be from Sephiroth to the cells, I perceive it to be from the cells to Sephiroth.
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MGS Board Prophet
#40Ryu_Kaze(Topic Creator)Posted 7/2/2006 8:41:23 AMmessage detail
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