Ben Sisko is the most evil captain in starfleet.

#41mystic belmontPosted 7/9/2012 8:12:56 AM
The Romulans were willing to turn a blind eye to the Federation, because to them helping the Federation out did not help them out. They did not see the Dominion turning on them, because of their intelligence.
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"Freedom was meaningless without ownership and control over one's own body" -Henry McNeal Turner
[Evil Republican]
#42KamenRiderBladePosted 7/13/2012 12:34:20 AM
My problem with TC is that he treates Gene Roddenberry's vision of ST as absolute perfection, and that anything post Roddenberry's death as effectively sacrilege.

Despite all the hate that Rick Berman and his associates get, he created quite a interesting Universe with a lot of detail and tons of Adventure.

DS9 is forever one of my favorite Trek shows because it deals with the hard choices and tough calls a Starfleet Captain has to make in the time of war.

TC, I bet you would hate "24" the TV series. I love that show personally, it shows what a person must do to get the job done.

Something DS9 does from time to time when they are being serious.

TC, do you honestly believe that the Dominion was going to fight fair and square or follow any rules of war? The Dominion was effectively supposed to be the Nazi's in many respects, just with a different spin. When it comes to a fight or war, there is only winners / losers. How you get to the end goal is up to you. As far as I'm concerned, since this is war and not a sport, I would do anything it takes to win.

Benjamin Sisko is one of the greatest Captains IMO because he had to deal with the hard choices, the choices that determined the fate of the ENTIRE UFP. That's alot harder to deal with than just usually taking care of only one's ship and crew like all the other captains.

As far as Gene Roddenberry always being right? Yeah he made Wesley Crusher, that was a horrible idea to make him so important and OP. We don't need Mary Sue's, we need more realistic portrayals of people. This is also coming from the man who thinks Bridges need to be on top of every Starfleet ship. Seriously? Why would you ever put your primary Command Structure at one of the most easily noticeable and vulnerable spots!!! Gene was a visionary, but he's not perfect, you've got to call out all the bad choices as it is.

As much as I like Utopia, I prefer a more realistic way of getting there and the sacrifices needed to maintain it. If you want the audience to believe Utopia works, you shouldn't be hand waiving so many aspects of the UFP society. They need to explain that better so that it's more believable.
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Are you a MexiCAN or a MexiCAN'T - Johnny Depp 'Once Upon A Time in Mexico'
#43Romaru21Posted 7/15/2012 10:25:08 AM
Gene Roddenberry created a future where mankind didn't instinctively resort to violence. I think it should be noted to make that distinction. I know that Gene himself disagreed a lot with the militarisation of Starfleet but to assume that there is not a single alien species that wanted to destroy the human race for kicks is naive on his part. And although I can't be 100% accurate with the man's ideas I think that if he wanted everything to be solved by talking he wouldn't have armed the Enterprise with weapons at all.

Kirk was all for sorting out problems diplomatically but if put into a situation where his back was against a wall he would use force to accomplish his goal, but always in the pursuit of a greater good i.e. protecting something or someone.

Sisko is a man on the front lines of battle, he's war weary with casualty reports rolling across his desk on a daily basis. He's in a position where he can see the bigger picture as an army commander while still being close enough to the front to see the little people giving their lives for the cause.

And he's seeing the very real possibilty that all the sacrifice might be in vain.

Look at how the Borg changed the Federation. Up till that point they were explorers who took everything with a degree of wonder. And at that point where there is a very real threat that Earth and the human race could be wiped out by a single Borg cube it must have given many Starfleet admirals pause to think, "What if there are more races like the Borg?"

This is another example of a race who are bent on destroying/subjugating the alpha quadrant based on centuries old prejudice of "solids". It doesn't truly matter who started the war, more that it arose from mutual distrust which then blossomed into open conflict.

As a single act you can't truly defend what Sisko did. It does amount to murder of an individual to satisfy his own ends. But he didn't do it for selfish reasons and that is why it is difficult to condemn him. And in a conflict such as this where 1000's die on a daily basis it's hard to feel anything for the death of senator on a neutral state, especially considering that his death was the turning point that brought about a victory for the Federation.

Lets also consider the aftermath. If the Founders had succeeded then the alpha quadrant would have been brutally subjegated and millions would have died at the hands of the Dominion.

But the Federation won. And rather than launch a counter assault on the gamma quadrant they were content to maintain a truce. If Sisko was truly in this for killing Jem-hadar or to exact revenge then he would have urged to lead an offensive to destroy the remaining forces in the gamma quadrant.

He's not an evil man. He's a father, a friend and a commander and his back was against the wall and he saw his only way out was to do an evil act for the greater good. Perhaps there was a 'better way' but hindsight is always 20:20.
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"It's not a cookie. It's a scone!!" - Major Zero (MGS3)
#44DunadainPosted 7/15/2012 8:35:15 PM
Ben Sisko is the most human captain (depicted) in Starfleet.

Kirk/Picard/Janeway (/never paid attention to Archer) go from adventure to adventure in palaces, armed with massive weaponry and near-immpenetrable shielding. Everything is solved in 42 minutes, there are no wars while the series is occuring, and everyone is smiles at the end of nearly every episode. The captains have no family members within walking distance to be concerned about, and nearly everyone on their ships trusts, respects, and honors the captain, & would follow them into hell. What is there to be stressed about?

Unlike the other captains, Sisko doesn't get a reset button at the end of every episode.

Sisko is introduced to us in the middle of the bloodiest battle in modern Starfleet history to that point. His wife dies in his arms and he is left with all the stresses of a career military single father. He is the object of adoration and hatred from all the people around him due to his experiences with the Prophets, place as Starfleet administrator, and keeper of the peace, and those people change sides frequently from episode to episode. All the choices he makes or the policies he puts into place have consequences over the next several episodes/seasons. He has about a dozen species all attempting to remove/destroy/conquer/or otherwise occupy the power position on DS9. AND he is the point person for Federation, Starfleet, and Bajor for a war of survival.

So yeah, he's under a bit of stress.

No, he doesn't always make a Roddenberry-esque choice, but in Roddenberry's future (by his own words in interviews), all the big problems have been solved. DS9 showed that the universe doesn't always work like IvoryTower/college academia decree it should.

From Memory Alpha
"On Earth, there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there in the Demilitarized Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. Out there, there are no saints just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with Federation approval or not!"
- Sisko, on Nechayev's suggestion that he "establish a dialogue" with the Maquis


I'm surprised he made as few bad decisions as he did considering the circumstances. The only two which come immediately to mind are poisoning the atmosphere of that one planet to get Eddington, and the above conversation bringing the Romulins into the Dominion War.

The Federation populace should have been out protesting for an end to a war the Federation started in the first place
How do you know they weren't? But the Feds didn't start the war, the Founders did. If an 'end to the war' mean't Gem'Hadar ships in the skies of Earth/Vulcan/Risa/Tellar, would you be on the protest lines, or on the battle lines with a phaser? Grow up.
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"Where were YOU when I was going through (insert your hell here)??" If you know of it, & don't stop it, you help cause it. Who will you rescue?
#45KamenRiderBladePosted 7/16/2012 5:07:37 PM
I'm not big on starting wars or fights, but if somebody else starts one with me, my friends, or my country, than I would do everything in my power to end it as fast as possible with victory on my side.
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Are you a MexiCAN or a MexiCAN'T - Johnny Depp 'Once Upon A Time in Mexico'
#46OzymandiasIVPosted 7/16/2012 5:44:24 PM
From: Savott | Posted: 6/29/2012 10:11:18 AM | #006
There are no rules in war


That's flat out not true.
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Sucking at something is the first step to becoming sort of good at something.
#47KamenRiderBladePosted 7/16/2012 7:55:00 PM
There are only rules if people choose to follow them.

The moment that one side chooses to ignore any sort of rule, you can bet on the other side throwing the same rules out the window.
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Are you a MexiCAN or a MexiCAN'T - Johnny Depp 'Once Upon A Time in Mexico'
#48OzymandiasIVPosted 7/16/2012 8:20:49 PM
From: KamenRiderBlade | Posted: 7/16/2012 11:55:00 PM | #047
The moment that one side chooses to ignore any sort of rule, you can bet on the other side throwing the same rules out the window.


And then having to answer to the rest of the people who still follow and enforce the rules.
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Sucking at something is the first step to becoming sort of good at something.
#49KamenRiderBladePosted 7/17/2012 2:00:46 AM
OzymandiasIV posted...
From: KamenRiderBlade | Posted: 7/16/2012 11:55:00 PM | #047
The moment that one side chooses to ignore any sort of rule, you can bet on the other side throwing the same rules out the window.


And then having to answer to the rest of the people who still follow and enforce the rules.


History is written by the victors. If the bad guys won, I'm sure there would've been no military tribunal over war crimes for WW2 over the many Nazi soldiers. In fact there would've been alot of celebrations over their atrocities by the people who sided with Hitler.
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Are you a MexiCAN or a MexiCAN'T - Johnny Depp 'Once Upon A Time in Mexico'
#50Romaru21Posted 7/18/2012 11:48:30 AM
OzymandiasIV posted...
And then having to answer to the rest of the people who still follow and enforce the rules.


(I know this is going to go the wrong way even before I post it... All aboard for massive derailment in 3...2...1....)

America chose to ignore the United Nations when they launched an offensive into Iraq on the grounds of looking for weapons of mass destruction. Several years on and there is 0% evidence of nuclear/bio weapons and what did the 'people who still follow the rules' do?

They publicly condemned it... No sanctions, no prosecutions. They effectively wrote 'a strongly worded memo' which the American government promptly ignored.

War has no rules, whether you want to believe it or not. There are the 'acceptable rules of engagement' but all that does is make it justifiable in the eyes of the voting populace.
Politicians convince the 2 sides that they hate each other, with words like 'He wants to steal your land. He wants to rape your sister. He wants to kill your defile your wife on the burned remains of your house.'

And you know what? It works. Then they give them weapons and send them charging off towards the other guy with ideas of 'protecting their family and country'.

And you know what else? When you consider that the Dominion was bigger than the Federation by a huge amount, had arguably superior technology and a brainwashed fighting force of soldiers, and that they started the conflict with the assault on DS9 it's almost like a huge nation attacking a smaller one because they trump up some idea that the smaller nation might launch a first strike.
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"It's not a cookie. It's a scone!!" - Major Zero (MGS3)