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The latest trend in pro-abortion thinking

#111TheRunner PDPosted 2/19/2013 7:48:52 AM
Brandon seems interesting and reasonable to talk to. If you don't mind, what's you're take on abortions after conception occurring:

1) as a result of rape (let us assume the rape is timely reported)

2) a result of incest (again, timely reported)

3) a danger threatening the mother's life is presented (this can occur at any time)

4) a condition is discovered indicating the child will be born with a debilitating disfigurement or disease (I actually have a difficult time deciding this one myself).

Please keep in mind: The above scenarios do not represent instances of mandatory abortions, but, rather, whether the mother may choose to abort.

Anyone is free to answer, but I'm honestly more interested in engaging Brandon, so please don't take offense if I don't respond.
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#112fudrickPosted 2/19/2013 9:01:20 AM
Aristotle16807 posted...
You still did not answer my question. What makes us killing us wrong?

You are trying to make it arbitrary. Confusing the topic is not helping your case. Twins that have the same DNA does not mean they are they same person any more than two blocks of wood with the same dimensions are the same blocks of wood. If you are still having trouble telling them apart you'll notice there is two not one. You are playing stupid again.

You still haven't explained what about the brain denotes personhood.

When you say they have an desire to live do you mean expressed or passive? If expressed, then I should be able to kill anyone as long as they did not express their desire to live. If passive, then that must mean mere existence denotes the desire to live. That would mean that a human at any stage of development has a desire to live.

Do you truly believe that a member of the human species is not created until they have a brain with sensory input? If so, what species are they between conception and sensory input?


So what about all those unique specimens of human DNA you have killed in your lifetime? I thought that the presence of unique human DNA was the important part?
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#113notforclimbingPosted 2/19/2013 9:04:07 AM
abortion has done wonders for my vacuuming business
#114angrybirdsdudePosted 2/19/2013 12:40:35 PM
I really was curious what your squat was TC :c
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#115RedcountPosted 2/19/2013 3:18:20 PM
So many ad hominem attacks in this thread, it's ridiculous.

Supporters of abortion consistantly fall back on stereotyping and preconceived notions of who pro-lifers are or what they believe.

Nevermind the blog posted is secular, abortion supporters will consistantly try to slander their opposition by painting them all as religious yahoos who want to "punish whores".

I don't need to believe in a god to know that killing kids is wrong.
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#116Nitro378Posted 2/19/2013 3:24:23 PM(edited)
A zygote isn't a kid, but I digress, poorer would-be parents are more likely to opt for an abortion, and poorer children are more likely to grow up to be criminals or violent offenders, so by your value system don't you just save time by letting people have abortions?

CHECKMATE, REDCOUNT
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#117RedcountPosted 2/19/2013 3:26:56 PM
No one is guilty until they commit an act (or at least conspire to).

I don't have an ivory-tower liberal-elitist view of the poor, like you do.

Being "pro-life" and "pro-death" are very consistant - babies are innocent, and deserve to live. Murderers are guilty, and deserve to die. Nothing inconsistant there.
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Going to Saskatoon to catch an all ages Ahnabith Gish show for 15 Canadian dollars. Maybe I'll get a wrist band so I can drink a refreshing Molson's - Orca
#118hunter_gohanPosted 2/19/2013 4:16:13 PM
Aristotle16807 posted...
You still did not answer my question. What makes us killing us wrong?


We're sapient. The great Athe, FSM, and IPU(PBUHHH) all agreed and told me that was wrong.

You are trying to make it arbitrary. Confusing the topic is not helping your case. Twins that have the same DNA does not mean they are they same person any more than two blocks of wood with the same dimensions are the same blocks of wood. If you are still having trouble telling them apart you'll notice there is two not one. You are playing stupid again.


No I'm showing you how "unique DNA" does not make a person. You recognize this the second you recognize identical twins are two different people. You recognize this the second you recognize a Chimera is only one person. Hint: The twins each have their own working brain; the Chimera has just one. Calling it up is merely an ad hoc bull excuse to defend your arbitrary line in the sand.

You still haven't explained what about the brain denotes personhood.


Well idk, why do you recognize the two different brains of identical twins as two people and the single brain of a Chimera as one person?

When you say they have an desire to live do you mean expressed or passive? If expressed, then I should be able to kill anyone as long as they did not express their desire to live. If passive, then that must mean mere existence denotes the desire to live. That would mean that a human at any stage of development has a desire to live.


Well I'd say it's assumed usually, but that's probably your passive. The existence of a person sure, but no a human at any stage of development does not have a desire to live. Sperm does not have a desire to live. That is as much a stage of human development as a fertilized egg no matter how much your side wishes to ignore that.

Do you truly believe that a member of the human species is not created until they have a brain with sensory input? If so, what species are they between conception and sensory input?


They're of the species human. Just like my hair is human, my fingers are human, my arm is human, my sperm is human etc. Absolutely none of those(including fertilized eggs) are people or human beings though.

To clarify a bit I don't actually know when a person is truly made. It's not some binary operation where it's "Not a person, not a person, not a person, bam a person." It's a continuous buildup. It's more like the color spectrum.

http://therevelationpaintingstones.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/computer_color_spectrum1.jpg

Can you tell me the exact spot where red ends and yellow begins? What we can do is look at the left and go up to the last point where we can say "Yup that's definitely red." Then go over to the right side and find the first point where we can say "Yup that's definitely yellow." Everything between them is grey. A mashup of both.

For humans "That's definitely red" seems to end when those thalamic brain connections start to form and the yellow starts seeping into the red. The "Yup that's definitely yellow." would probably be when it can start to talk to you.(Though it's obvious they'd have to be a person before they can do that, I'm not sure if there'd be a way to tell or not reliably). In part because of this I have absolutely no problem erring on the side of caution and only allowing medically necessary abortions after week 25.
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#119hunter_gohanPosted 2/19/2013 4:16:32 PM
Redcount posted...
I don't need to believe in a god to know that killing kids is wrong.

No but you need a religious belief(or, at least, religious like) that a fertilized egg is a human being, but sperm and unfertilized eggs aren't.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#120nighthawk16Posted 2/19/2013 9:11:29 PM
The value of human life is human consciousness. If you kill something that lacks self-awarness, sensory perception, memories, emotion, cognitive processing, etc. etc. all the aggregates of sentience and personhood, then what have you really killed? The answer is nothing. Just a biological framework, a cocktail napkin doodle of a human life, a mere potentiality.
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