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The latest trend in pro-abortion thinking

#91hunter_gohanPosted 2/17/2013 11:51:42 PM
MasterEchu posted...
as brandon and hunter said, any date picked is totally arbitrary, the womans body is extremely variable, and any date we set is based purely on the perception of sentience, which means you're basing it on nothing but judgements that by no means can ever be certain.


Well I never said any date. I see nothing arbitrary about setting a date based upon the brain. It's the same way we declare people dead. If there's a brain dead body being kept alive by machines, then the person is dead all that's left is a shell. If there's a brain that hasn't even developed enough to mediate sensory input, then the person hasn't even formed yet and the mother's rights take precedence.

Flaming_Fire619 posted...
Well biologically, the sperm and the egg carry half the chromosomes needed for a viable human. The moment they fuse and become a zygote they have all the building blocks for a human. From there it's just time.


So then your answer to how a fertilized egg is a human being while sperm and unfertilized eggs aren't is that they aren't human beings either? Ok, I agree with you there.
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#92legendoftomPosted 2/18/2013 12:07:18 AM
I'm fairly liberal, but I am pro-life. Abortion just seems wrong.

I am very much in favor of things like contraception and the day-after pill, however.
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#93Superlnfinity45Posted 2/18/2013 12:18:00 AM(edited)
I'm reluctantly in favour of abortion because I think that anything that can keep down the world's population has to be a good thing. It is however a terrible procedure which shouldn't be taken lightly... and it's not the woman's "own body" since at least half the baby is the male's, and the baby is like a pre-human. Every abortion a girl has should be on record like a criminal record also... all relevant details included.
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#94jastenPosted 2/18/2013 12:42:52 AM
fudrick posted...
jasten posted...
I can only sympathise with the mother if it was rape or medical concerns (again mentally or physically)... but my only answer to those idiots that just dont' want a kid.... keep your damn pants on if you aren't willing to deal with the consequences. Really tired of that excuse being used... show some damn restraint then if you don't want a kid.


They are willing to deal with the consequences, that's why they get abortions. That's dealing with the consequences.


That's running away and hiding like an immature brat. If you want to call that dealing, then they dealt... and showed their own worth.
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#95CyborgSage00x0Posted 2/18/2013 12:49:58 AM
> Message Detail
> Mark for: Trolling
> Topic List

That's seriously all you people need to do for topics like these. Seriously, how Wormy alts (or whoever this is) keep getting 10+ page topics with blatant trolling is remarkable.

Just ****ing report the trolls and move on.
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#96BrandonNC316(Moderator)Posted 2/18/2013 3:12:16 AM(edited)
Faust_8 posted...
^^ I see what you're saying but arbitrary lines in the sand are just a part of life.

Is it fair that a 18 year old who has sex with a 17 year old could be convicted of statutory rape, whereas if she was 18 it would be perfectly fine? Is it fair that someone is 20 years and 11 months old can't drink? Surely it's a blurry issue isn't it?

Sometimes there just HAS to be a line that we draw somewhere, because it's far messier to not have a line at all. It is, in fact, more fair that way...not perfect, but any other way is going to end up with unfairness.

I certainly have qualms with the currently-rigid laws concerning the age of consent and the drinking age, but more to the point you're making here, it's true that those types of laws are obviously arbitrary by their nature and yet most people have come to accept them as valid. Indeed, I would go as far as to say every single law on the books in every country in the world is "arbitrary" by virtue of there being no universal standard for morality, and thus no means by which to say that something is indisputably "right" or "wrong." However, it's important for me to note that my contention was merely that making abortion illegal is the *least* arbitrary policy that can be enacted (relative to the theoretical alternatives: e.g., abortion being legal only until four months, two weeks, and six days into pregnancy; or legal only until the precise second when the baby is outside of its mother, where killing the child would then instantaneously become illegal).

hunter_gohan posted...
Well except that being quite illegal in all 50 states I'm pretty sure.

Actually, late-term abortions are in fact legal for practically any reason because of the Supreme Court (in Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton) requiring that bans on late-term abortions have exceptions so broad that virtually any excuse qualifies (e.g., a single episode of minor depression during pregnancy must be held by each state as sufficient to justify a late-term abortion, because the mother's "health" is implicated). Some states have tried to combat this in defiance of the Supreme Court's decisions (which is theoretically "unconstitutional," obviously), but late-term abortions still remain relatively common in several states -- and it most certainly isn't just in the cases of life-threatening medical circumstances.

hunter_gohan posted...
How is drawing the line at 0 not also equally wrong then? You're just arbitrarily drawing the 0 point at conception which is itself T+however many days since the sperm was formed in the male's testicles. Why is this T+ 16 hours ok to draw the line at, but not the other T+16 hours?

Conception is the moment at which the new organism (i.e., human being) comes into existence; it is the same organism that eventually goes through the normal stages of human development (embryo, toddler, adolescent, etc. until death). Before this precise point in human development, the organism did not exist in any capacity whatsoever; only the separate, distinct entities of sperm and egg existed, and these gametes are not the same organism that will become a fetus, then later an adolescent, and so forth, culminating in the death of that particular organism.
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#97BrandonNC316(Moderator)Posted 2/18/2013 3:13:37 AM(edited)
hunter_gohan posted...
It's completely arbitrary actually. What is so special about this cell's ability to grow that would require taking rights over their own bodies away from women? Nothing went from not-alive to alive at conception, nothing went from not-human to human. It's merely one more step along that process of human development you mention. A completely arbitrary spot to say killing before this line is perfectly fine, but so help you if you kill it after that egg gets fertilized!

The unborn child's right to not be killed trumps his or her mother's right to kill the child for the benefit of not having to be pregnant anymore. And there is indeed an exact moment in time where a new human being came into existence, as there was nothing in existence before this moment except for gametes (sperm and egg) that are biologically-distinct entities. After conception, there no longer exists an "egg" (oocyte), biologically speaking, because fertilization has now taken place.

MasterEchu posted...
Ok, seeing as my post was ignored I'll so smaller this time.

as brandon and hunter said, any date picked is totally arbitrary, the womans body is extremely variable, and any date we set is based purely on the perception of sentience, which means you're basing it on nothing but judgements that by no means can ever be certain.

as I stated in my post on page 7, there are-many- situations where the birth of a child would be harmful to both the mother AND the child, it's birth would become a burden on even itself. these situations can even include death of the mother either mentally or physically, in both cases, you are essentially choose who lives and who dies, and, depending on situation "saving the future generation" may also include both of them.

Now I ask this, shoudl the government start defining specific buracratic rules on WHEN someone can have an abortion? Either they are going to choose to trust it to the judge or doctor on call and make it have questionable bias, or said specific rules which would make it overcomplex in a situation where time is a factor. Either way, it hurts society more than it helps, are the amount situations where abortions save something, is....actually kind of shocking, not common but not astronomical either.


Regarding the arbitrariness issue you present, see my responses to the other users above. As to your point concerning the bureaucracy involved in determining the legality of an abortion based on circumstances, do you feel it legally prudent for a woman to be able to have an abortion for any reason during any time of pregnancy? I respect your opinion if you do (even though I disagree, of course); but if that isn't your position, and you do feel there should be some kind of limit, then that must necessarily involve the governmental decision-making you mention.
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#98SadPanda07Posted 2/18/2013 7:12:08 AM
From: Aristotle16807 | #001
Most “pro-choice” people are nice, well-meaning folks; they certainly don’t view themselves as the sort of people who would condone violence against helpless human beings. But abortion always requires the violent destruction and disposal of a human being. How, then, to support abortion while staying true to humane values? This is the question.


Stopped reading right there. I do not believe an undeveloped fetus is a human being. Sure, it's "alive", but it is not a human being.
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#99SaikyoStylePosted 2/18/2013 7:28:00 AM
jasten posted...
fudrick posted...
jasten posted...
I can only sympathise with the mother if it was rape or medical concerns (again mentally or physically)... but my only answer to those idiots that just dont' want a kid.... keep your damn pants on if you aren't willing to deal with the consequences. Really tired of that excuse being used... show some damn restraint then if you don't want a kid.


They are willing to deal with the consequences, that's why they get abortions. That's dealing with the consequences.


That's running away and hiding like an immature brat. If you want to call that dealing, then they dealt... and showed their own worth.


Still beats the alternative of yet another unwanted, unloved child in the world.
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#100YouAreCrumbsPosted 2/18/2013 11:11:44 AM
MasterEchu posted...
YouAreCrumbs posted...
Zero_Destroyer posted...
Aristotle16807 posted...
Almost no one besides a select few are worth taking seriously on this board. Debating with people on this board is pointless because no matter what logically way things are spelled out for them they lean on circular logic (play stupid), or change their premises every response instead of defending the truth/inference to their conclusions. This is especially true in the abortion debate. Anyway, this is boring. Really boring.


I'm willing to engage in a civil debate on Abortion as per usual.

My problem with most of the pro-life movement is that the abortion ban would mean all those fetuses they go on about being aborted would be born mostly in poverty, unhappy households, or into a crowded adoption system. If you stack millions of children all around you just end up making them suffer.

The better solution is to look at it from a countrywide stance and seek to improve our sex education systems and have easy contraceptive access especially in more poverty stricken areas of the country. This would help quell STD and teen pregnancy rates and probably the abortion rate as it would help prevent unwanted pregnancies to start with.


OR we could do abstinence only sex education and show children graphic pictures of STDs in an attempt to traumatize them, like most of the anti-abortion states do.


or you could realize those cases are completely insane and very rare, acknowledging that this line of thinking is totally pointless as you're only attacking the rare stereotype that mostly doesnt exist because no sane person does this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXxxM2ijrYg


Uh, I live in Texas. That is exactly the sex education that i got.
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