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Cops: Homeless couple rapes teens with sex toys

#51the final bahamutPosted 4/24/2013 5:06:05 AM
sith_acolyte15 posted...

1) Have you been doing it in isolated areas in abandoned buildings?


Yup. Didn't get raped. Hell, this one time I got drunk as a skunk every day for weeks in this place that was 50 miles from the nearest neighbour. Still didn't get raped.

2) People never get raped by someone they know?


Actually people tend to get raped by someone they know rather than by a stranger. However, this is a fact that the "She should have used common sense!" people are usually completely unaware of and most of their rules are therefore against it.
The fact is that if you want to "use common sense" to stay out of rape situations it means stuff like "don't associate with other people". However, this doesn't play into the hands of people who want to say "I'm not saying it's not the woman's fault... but it's totally the woman's fault" so they ignore it.

3) Not saying they should live in constant fear of it. Just that actions have consequences. And putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations can lead to dangerous outcomes.


Except "potentiontionally dangerous situations" means stuff like:
- Going to a party (regardless of whether you're drinking or not)
- Being at the office
- Being at home
- Wearing non-revealing ("prudish") clothing
- Wearing revealing ("slutty") clothing
- Hanging out with someone you know
- Having a relationship
- Having a family
-etc.

and expecting women to simply not do these things means expecting them to live a life that would make a Victorian lady seem liberated. The fact is that nearly all the situations that women get raped in are situations that a billions other women were in that exact same day but still didn't get raped. In the end, you can't prevent rape simply by "having common sense". You can only prevent rape by stopping people from raping others.

4) Speak for yourself.


That doesn't even make sense.
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#52Anarchy_JuiblexPosted 4/24/2013 5:17:58 AM
You do realize the article mentions that one of the teens knew the guy right? As in... it's not like they just plopped down next to a dumpster with some hobos and swigged on some Mad Dog and then got raped.

He's 10 years older than them, they didn't know him. Hell, they "knew him" by a false name. Also, aren't most people raped by someone they know? Granted, hard to stay out of a dangerous situation when you can't identify it as dangerous but that's why we have age limits on booze, age of consent, etc . . . they circumvented laws meant to protect them.

Hell, the message here is that parents need to do a better job educating their kids.
#53No2WookiePosted 4/24/2013 7:33:20 AM
the final bahamut posted...
No2Wookie posted...
Allow me to provide a male gender example: you don't just go dropping the soap willy nilly in a crowded prison shower


Disregarding all the other problems with the post I'm quoting I just want to say this:

You're comparing a situation where you're closed in with known, violent and sexual offenders in a social ecosystem where rape is a customary method of establishing dominance... with hanging out with some dude you know and his girlfriend.

You don't see the problem with that?


And how, pray tell, do known violent sexual offenders in prison with a penchant for sexual dominance become so known?
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#54Caer_DeathPosted 4/24/2013 8:01:45 AM
the final bahamut posted...
sith_acolyte15 posted...

1) Have you been doing it in isolated areas in abandoned buildings?


Yup. Didn't get raped. Hell, this one time I got drunk as a skunk every day for weeks in this place that was 50 miles from the nearest neighbour. Still didn't get raped.

2) People never get raped by someone they know?


Actually people tend to get raped by someone they know rather than by a stranger. However, this is a fact that the "She should have used common sense!" people are usually completely unaware of and most of their rules are therefore against it.
The fact is that if you want to "use common sense" to stay out of rape situations it means stuff like "don't associate with other people". However, this doesn't play into the hands of people who want to say "I'm not saying it's not the woman's fault... but it's totally the woman's fault" so they ignore it.

3) Not saying they should live in constant fear of it. Just that actions have consequences. And putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations can lead to dangerous outcomes.


Except "potentiontionally dangerous situations" means stuff like:
- Going to a party (regardless of whether you're drinking or not)
- Being at the office
- Being at home
- Wearing non-revealing ("prudish") clothing
- Wearing revealing ("slutty") clothing
- Hanging out with someone you know
- Having a relationship
- Having a family
-etc.

and expecting women to simply not do these things means expecting them to live a life that would make a Victorian lady seem liberated. The fact is that nearly all the situations that women get raped in are situations that a billions other women were in that exact same day but still didn't get raped. In the end, you can't prevent rape simply by "having common sense". You can only prevent rape by stopping people from raping others.

4) Speak for yourself.


That doesn't even make sense.


Just number 3. It's a little hyperbolic to think that women should go the Saudi-route to be safe. It's also hyperbolic to suggest that the girls couldn't have forseen the dangers of the situation. Being that getting drugs and alcohol at that age means you HAVE to go through illegal means and generally unsavory people. There are different degrees of danger, with plenty of extreme cases where the victim SHOULD remove themselves from a situation or have some sort of safety plan to do so if the need arises.

The question isn't so much of blaming the victim, because the victim's innocent. It's whether or not a red light should have gone off. In some situations, a red light should go off. Dare I say that as a guy, I'd be too afraid of being robbed or something. Blaming the victim is wrong, and women shouldn't live their lives TO avoid rape, but this is one of those terrible situations that girls need to be warned about. Don't accept alcohol from strange adults, and if anyone wants to play strip poker with you, it means they want to get in your pants. Not blame, but a living tragic warning.
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#55TheRealJiraiyaPosted 4/24/2013 8:05:23 AM
Kia123Amini posted...
let's be honest here, what they did was stupid. i mean, it's horrible that they got raped, and I would never say "what do you expect," because I honestly don't know enough about the situation to know what they should/shouldn't have expected.

But still, doing drugs, drinking, and playing strip poker, in an abandoned house with a homeless couple? Man, that's just bad news bears. Very unfortunate.


This is how I feel about it too, but I would empathize that people who go as far as to BLAME them for being raped are pretty clearly in the wrong.
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#56bsballa09Posted 4/24/2013 8:15:32 AM(edited)
Smelly_Garage posted...
From: bsballa09 | #003
What the **** do you think can happen to you when you drink and smoke weed with homeless people in an abandoned building?


Is this seriously a new low for bsballa?


When you do something stupid, expect people to criticize you for being stupid.

If these girls were just walking home and they got jumped and raped, that is a different story. But if you put yourself in a situation where getting raped is greatly increased, then don't be surprised if you get raped.
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#57TheRealJiraiyaPosted 4/24/2013 8:06:46 AM
I feel like this argument has boiled down to people who think this was a really, really stupid thing to do and people who think the rapists are scumbags and 100% at fault, but both of those things are correct
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
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#58TheRealJiraiyaPosted 4/24/2013 8:13:20 AM
the final bahamut posted...
No it isn't, it's trying to perpetuate the idea that women should live in fear of being raped all the time and that going out without the company of a Big Strong Man to keep their delicate feminine selves safe

If this had been two guys, no one would have expected them to get raped. However, rape is largely gender-blind.

Of course, had they been guys and been raped we wouldn't be victim blaming, we'd be making fun of them and speculating on whether or not the woman-rapist was hot or not.
Rape culture.


This is silly. I am a man and I would not do what they did. This was dumb behavior. Why cant we agree on something so obvious? Would you go to an abandoned house with random homeless people you dont know and drink, do drugs, and play strip poker?

Like... this doesnt make them responsible for their being raped, but of course it was dumb behavior. If I had a child and they told me they were going to do this I would tell them "that is really stupid behavior and a dangerous situation" - whether they are a woman or not.

Setting aside the rape (which was not their fault in the slightest) they put themselves in a dangerous situation and it was a really, really stupid thing to do. They shouldnt have feared rape, but they definitely should have feared the situation, not because it necessarily would have led to rape, but because it is just a dangerous situation to put yourself in.

This is a very extreme example of the same category of thing as not getting in the car with a stranger. Of course it was a dumb thing to do. And, while victim blaming is scumbaggish, it seems destructive to pretend that there were no clearly poor decisions made here.

It isnt "living in fear" to not go to an abandoned house with some homeless people you just met and play drunk and high strip poker. It is "basic safety" - no more "living in fear" than "dont stick a fork in the toaster"
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
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#59the final bahamutPosted 4/24/2013 8:21:05 AM
Caer_Death posted...
<
Just number 3. It's a little hyperbolic to think that women should go the Saudi-route to be safe.


Except if you want to play the "women should stay away from situations that women get raped in" card, then yes; you DO need to think that women should go the Saudi-route... Except, of course, they shouldn't go the Saudi-route because women get raped in the Saudi route.

This is what I'm trying to get at, the entire "just have common sense" thing doesn't work because
A) most common sense solution actually does nothing to affect your chance of being raped
and
B) If we're approaching this having some statistical knowledge of when rape happens then the only real guideline we can give anyone is "don't be near a rapist". Pretending that there's a simple set of precautions that will protect a person from rape is simply not based in reality.

It's also hyperbolic to suggest that the girls couldn't have forseen the dangers of the situation. Being that getting drugs and alcohol at that age means you HAVE to go through illegal means and generally unsavory people.


I saw someone else make the same point, so I'm going to direct a question at the entire board: When did you start drinking, and how many people did you who drank before they turned 21 and came out completely unscathed? Because for me, the answer is 12 (calm down mods, it was legal for me) and "A f***load". Most people, it turns out, drink alcohol before they turn 21 and barring the sort of insane binges and bad alcohol culture that the US system encourages, most people turn out a-okay.
Weed is a slightly different issue, but the fact remains that getting weed in America without ever running into sleazy people is pretty f***ing easy.
While underage drinking and weed-smoking may both be illegal in the US, nothing about doing either really necessitates any other risks than the risks of getting caught.


Don't accept alcohol from strange adults, and if anyone wants to play strip poker with you, it means they want to get in your pants. Not blame, but a living tragic warning.


And both of those things quite simply aren't true. Yes, they CAN be used as a caution to not get into trouble, just like "Always abstain from alcohol regardless of your age", "Never do sports that could lead to injuries" and "Never go on an adventure" but the fact remains that most of the time people do this to pretty much no ill effect. Doing them are usually just part of life, and trying to make it into something incredibly scary simply isn't a good idea. It's good to advice people to have their wits about them, yes, but the fact remains that kids are going to do dumb, adventurous stuff. And no one can prevent that.
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E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.
#60Caer_DeathPosted 4/24/2013 8:31:28 AM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
I feel like this argument has boiled down to people who think this was a really, really stupid thing to do and people who think the rapists are scumbags and 100% at fault, but both of those things are correct


Don't forget the people that believe both.
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