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Liberal here. On the fence about switching to Libertarianism.

#1QuleughyPosted 7/22/2013 9:48:53 PM
A few set backs:

-does the libertarian party really believe taxes should be a choice rather than mandatory? How can a government survive under such conditions? In game theory this problem is represented in The Volunteer Dilemma, which is basically a big game of chicken in the inverse. Given the option of contributing a sacrifice for an overall good or waiting for everyone else to contribute first so you can get a free ride, it is the rational choice to wait it out. This will be true for every individual player who wants to optimize his profits. Thus the rational outcome is one where nobody acts.

-are there no instances where it is appropriate for the government to regulate activity? Surely it is wrong to allow businesses to racially, religiously, and sexually discriminate? A person should be hired based on the merit of their performance. To allow free reign of such discrimination is to allow whoever has the highest amount of wealth to marginalized whatever group they see fit. There should be a check of power here.

-what answers does the libertarian party have for those who propose a free market will devolve into corporatism?

-I'm Pro-Choice. This isn't changing unless the scientific data changes. From my understanding the libertarian party is split on this. There are those that quote John Stuart Mill, Judith Jarvis Thomson, Ayn Rand, and JOMA in their support of women's rights. However, there are also many that quote scripture or reference fetal heart beat in turn. My question is what chance is there of forming a unified identity on this issue?

-I'm Pro-Gay rights. This isn't changing. What are libertarian views toward marriage? I've heard some in favor of gay marriage, but I've heard others who want marriage removed from government control. I don't see why with the latter when the tax breaks that come with marriage seem reasonable, but then most libertarians hold that taxes are always wrong. So maybe I answered my own question. Still, there are benefits like visitation rights, parental rights, and compensation for a partner should the marriage not work out (divorse) - things I believe are more simply handled in one contract rather than doing them all separately.

-Any thoughts on Tyler Cowen? Specifically his paper, The Paradox of Libertarianism?

-What is the libertarian position on Climate Change? The overwhelming majority of scientist agree that there is a notable human connection to it. Yet on the other hand, like the Volunteer Dilemma, it seems inevitable that no one will ever change their ways in order to better the whole and pave a better future for out children. Given these two problems, what should be done? After all, even if America does do something that diminishes our effect on the environment, that doesn't mean we can force our ways on the rest of the world.

-What is the libertarian position on Animal Rights? Ethical philosophers have presented a really strong argument for the consideration of animals unless you're going to be arbitrary in choosing your criteria in determining what makes a sentient being worthy of consideration, it seems the fallacy of speciesism holds. I agree with the conclusions of those like Singer and Parfit who argue this. Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins even acknowledge their conclusions though they say they cannot resist their omnivorous urges, withal. Benjamin Franklin and Einstein wanted to be vegetarians, but the former could not resist his urges and capitulated to a tu quoue rationalization while the latter committed too late to to his death to be of note. Ayn Rand rejected the idea that something of such low "intelligence" is worth consideration, and even went on record as stating the mentally handicapped and babies don't really count as people to keep consistent with that notion. How should this problem be addressed?

Any response is appreciated.
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Dragons>>> Magicians> Yata Garasu> Angels> Ninjas>>>>>> All other fantasy creatures, FACT.
#2ColbertFan1337Posted 7/22/2013 9:50:36 PM
All that is a good sign you shouldn't go libertarian.
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I am the minotaur. All clowns are the minotaur. All clowns are the minotaur. It will never be your birthday again.
#3Sativa_RosePosted 7/22/2013 9:58:16 PM
I am going to try to do this in order

-does the libertarian party really believe taxes should be a choice rather than mandatory?

Virtually no libertarian actually believes this. Most libertarians want to drastically simplify the tax code, but the idea that taxes should be optional has never been a serious thought in the libertarian community.


-are there no instances where it is appropriate for the government to regulate activity?
There are instances. The rule is that if you are doing something that negatively effects me, then the government can step in to protect my rights. As long as what you are doing is not directly hurting other people, it should be allowed.

-what answers does the libertarian party have for those who propose a free market will devolve into corporatism?

Libertarians are very against handouts to special interest groups, special tax deductions, subsidies, and government sponsored enterprises in general. Libertarians are against all the things that corporations try to manipulate the government to get. Also, many Libertarians want to make campaign finance a lot more transparent.

-I'm Pro-Choice

The vast majority of the libertarian party is pro choice. The ones that are not tend to be much older and are being replaced by young blood.


-I'm Pro-Gay rights

Some Libertarians think the government should get out of marriage altogether. Libertarians definitely support gay marriage if marriage has to be a government function, though.

-Any thoughts on Tyler Cowen? Specifically his paper, The Paradox of Libertarianism?

no idea who that is so I'm not going to answer

-What is the libertarian position on Climate Change?.

This varies. Almost all libertarians accept that it exists, but there are disagreements on what should be done about it. The general consensus when it comes to environmental issues, though, is that you cannot do activities that harm other people or damage other people's property. So you can't pollute the river that flows down through 500 other people's farms. Libertarians are against things like green energy subsidies for corporations, but some do support directly funded government projects.

-What is the libertarian position on Animal Rights?

I have no idea about this issue
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Not changing my signature until Canadian citizen and marijuana legalization activist Marc Emery is released from U.S. federal prison.
#4D_BartPosted 7/22/2013 9:58:20 PM
ColbertFan1337 posted...
All that is a good sign you shouldn't go libertarian.

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#5Silver_OgrePosted 7/22/2013 10:12:52 PM
Quleughy posted...
-are there no instances where it is appropriate for the government to regulate activity? Surely it is wrong to allow businesses to racially, religiously, and sexually discriminate? A person should be hired based on the merit of their performance. To allow free reign of such discrimination is to allow whoever has the highest amount of wealth to marginalized whatever group they see fit. There should be a check of power here.

How would someone who discriminates on these bases even be in that position? If you do that, you're limiting your talent pool and potentially your consumer base. Businesses try to stay neutral in politics to avoid driving away potential customers.

-what answers does the libertarian party have for those who propose a free market will devolve into corporatism?

If there's not government to intervene in the market, how do you expect the market to intervene in the government?
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"Every inscription, every utterance, every gesture seeks to dominate the plain of meaning."
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#6kpearwutPosted 7/22/2013 11:04:30 PM
just stay liberal. you're pretty much for the pillars of liberalism (spending others' money, and petty social issues) and have no reason to 'switch' to libertarianism.
#7Quleughy(Topic Creator)Posted 7/22/2013 11:04:34 PM
Sativa_Rose
Virtually no libertarian actually believes this. Most libertarians want to drastically simplify the tax code, but the idea that taxes should be optional has never been a serious thought in the libertarian community.


I've actually heard many agree with Objectivist thought that a government should be run by voluntary contributions. But if this opinion is not reflected by the majority of libertarians, I'm happy to hear that.

Silver_Ogre posted...
- How would someone who discriminates on these bases even be in that position? If you do that, you're limiting your talent pool and potentially your consumer base. Businesses try to stay neutral in politics to avoid driving away potential customers.


I would agree with all but the last part. You still see religious discrimination from organizations with staunch religious owners like chic-fil-a. Such businesses do not care for optimal performance if it interferes with the personal beliefs of the owner, yet because they have such a wide demographic to appeal to, they can afford to carry on this way without reproach. One wonders why they even capitulated on donating to anti-gay groups when counter protests demonstrated just how much influence they carry. And should the culture be a little different, one wonders if other discriminatory causes that are now marginalized couldn't also get such power.

-If there's not government to intervene in the market, how do you expect the market to intervene in the government?


The government being unable to interfere with the market doesn't mean interference is stopped the other way. Politicians aren't completely incompetent. They know that a better funded campaign is statistically shown to win out over the lesser. And corporations aren't run by idiots who would ignore them knowing this, nor would a rational corporation ignore an opportunity to get a person of influence to become a lobbyist that could help whatever agenda it needs by twisting possibly good intended laws into an advantageous situation. For instance, those that take advantage of Green Party causes to block off land to potential rivals. Or those that take advantage of overcrowding prison situations in some cities in order to introduce private prisons. Or even influencing a vote on the technical matter of whether corporations are people. Now these are examples. Wherever you stand on environmental and technical causes isn't the point. The point is to show there will always be incentive for the market to interfere with the government. Less regulation means less hoops for them to jump through to act on these incentives, no? Or perhaps, any thought of keeping the two separate when there are reasons for them to interact is a lost cause regardless?
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Dragons>>> Magicians> Yata Garasu> Angels> Ninjas>>>>>> All other fantasy creatures, FACT.
#8Quleughy(Topic Creator)Posted 7/22/2013 11:18:57 PM
kpearwut posted...
just stay liberal. you're pretty much for the pillars of liberalism (spending others' money, and petty social issues) and have no reason to 'switch' to libertarianism.


I actually don't agree with most welfare programs and believe them to be nothing more than fodder for complacent opportunists. I also think most of them need to be cut for the sake of the economy, especially Social Security. That the Affordable Health Care Act will actually fine people for not having insurance is damn criminal.

None the less, how do my concerns give you the impression that I shouldn't be heard out. I only said I wasn't changing my mind on one of them, and that had nothing to do with taxation or welfare. Another one I said I will only change my mind on if the scientific data changes. And the scientific data can be improved upon to reach a result that could sway me. As for everything else, I merely gave my current opinion of the situation, as far as I can tell, but I'm completely open to solutions.
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Dragons>>> Magicians> Yata Garasu> Angels> Ninjas>>>>>> All other fantasy creatures, FACT.
#9sfcalimariPosted 7/22/2013 11:32:58 PM
If you sit around on the internet arguing about hypothetical libertarian fantasy scenarios, it's probably best not to pick a side.
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We cannot base our information on something mystical. It is something that has to be proved scientifically, that a human being turned into a goat.
#10KegIuneqPosted 7/23/2013 1:36:50 AM
There's no point addressing all of those questions. You should read and listen to libertarian people and see if you identify your views with what they write and say. If it clicks with what your perception of government and society should be, then you are a natural libertarian. If it does not, then there's no point in forcing it. Part of libertarianism comes from your senses and experiences. It's not accepting what you're told but understanding it and form your opinion on those issues.
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