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An honest question to Christians:

#121OrangeWizardPosted 5/25/2011 6:00:35 PM(edited)
the final bahamut posted...

So far you've lost track three times in this topic.


Sorry, I'm not accustomed to people suddenly backpedaling.

And where was I backpedaling?

Where you stopped assuming that the bible was the word of God.


So what exactly were you trying to imply here:

"Yes, it's entirely possible that God could have just placed holes in his lies so that we would spot them, and come to the conclusion that God does not exist."?

Because we were talking about me suggesting we could be able see through God's lies.

Dear me, did you lose your footing?

That's it's entirely possible that God is capable of doing something that goes against everything he's said and done in the scriptures, and that it's entirely possible that he could have done it in a way that we could figure out, but there's no evidence,or reason to believe in that, and that upon doing so, one might come to the conclusion that God exists.

However, that last section is in no way implying that you claimed that. It was a conclusion of my own making derived by following the preceding logic. It's not all about you, you know. Stop acting so childish.


Aaaand lost your footing again. Let's reiterate: If the Bible is the Word of God - sake of the argument, let's assume so - does that mean that it's entirely true?


Yes, because that's what "Word of God" means. That everything written in the bible is TRUE. That's what people generally mean when they say "assuming the bible is the Word of God."

If you'd like, we can stop using that term and start using "True", in the place of "the Word of God"

So now, do we continue assuming that the things written in the bible are True, or Lies?
Half and Half?
70/30?

We need to establish this if you ever stop backpedaling and go back to your original point.


No, this isn't based on this topic, it's based on how you ALWAYS behave.


So Ad Hom then?
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"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#122ledzepfan15Posted 5/25/2011 7:53:12 PM
Nothing is, but I have yet to see any evidence or reason to believe that God is mean.

Confirmation bias.

I don't think you have any idea what that actually is


There's plenty of evidence that suggests God is mean, but whether you accept that evidence or not is another story.
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"If you think, you are late. If you are late, you use strength. If you use strength, you tire. And if you tire, you die." - Saulo Ribeiro
#123OrangeWizardPosted 5/25/2011 8:45:50 PM
ledzepfan15 posted...

There's plenty of evidence that suggests God is mean, but whether you accept that evidence or not is another story.


That's a little better.

Saying that someone who doesn't see any reason to believe God is mean has committed confirmation bias would be incorrect.

Saying that there is plenty of evidence that suggests something to the contrary, then accusing that person as having confirmation bias is better, but it's still inaccurate since you're accusing me of knowing that there is evidence to the contrary, but ignoring it.

And you are not a mind-reader, so you still can't accuse me of confirmation bias.

I study the bible regularly, which, I'm pretty sure, is more than I can say for you. I see no reason to suggest that God is mean.
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"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#124ledzepfan15Posted 5/25/2011 9:07:47 PM
That's a little better.

Saying that someone who doesn't see any reason to believe God is mean has committed confirmation bias would be incorrect.

Saying that there is plenty of evidence that suggests something to the contrary, then accusing that person as having confirmation bias is better, but it's still inaccurate since you're accusing me of knowing that there is evidence to the contrary, but ignoring it.

And you are not a mind-reader, so you still can't accuse me of confirmation bias.


I was mistaken, fair enough. I jumped a little to quick at the starting line there.

I study the bible regularly, which, I'm pretty sure, is more than I can say for you. I see no reason to suggest that God is mean.

I'm quite sure you've read the Bible more often than I have, but that doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

I also find it interesting that two of my friends who are ordained ministers, both of whom study the Bible and everything relating to the Bible, think that God is mean (to put it nicely). I'm not using them as authoritative sources, I'm just showing that people who devote their lives to the Bible- like yourself- have differing opinions, even though they're reading the same book.
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"If you think, you are late. If you are late, you use strength. If you use strength, you tire. And if you tire, you die." - Saulo Ribeiro
#125OrangeWizardPosted 5/25/2011 9:18:07 PM
ledzepfan15 posted...

I'm quite sure you've read the Bible more often than I have, but that doesn't make my opinion any less valid.


Of course not. It just means that it's less likely that you know what you're talking about.
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"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#126the final bahamut(Topic Creator)Posted 5/26/2011 10:26:52 AM
Sorry, I'm not accustomed to people suddenly backpedaling.

Oh really? I didn't know fish could be unaccustomed to swimming. That's fascinating.

Where you stopped assuming that the bible was the word of God.

Which, to reiterate, I didn't.


Dear me, did you lose your footing?

That's it's entirely possible that God is capable of doing something that goes against everything he's said and done in the scriptures, and that it's entirely possible that he could have done it in a way that we could figure out, but there's no evidence,or reason to believe in that, and that upon doing so, one might come to the conclusion that God exists.

However, that last section is in no way implying that you claimed that. It was a conclusion of my own making derived by following the preceding logic. It's not all about you, you know. Stop acting so childish.


Ahh, so we're just incapable of predicting the implications of our posts, is that it?


Yes, because that's what "Word of God" means.


No - again - "Word of God" simply means what it says - that it is the word of God. There's nothing preventing it to be leis from God.

If you'd like, we can stop using that term and start using "True", in the place of "the Word of God"

So now, do we continue assuming that the things written in the bible are True, or Lies?
Half and Half?
70/30?


I take it you've never considered the subject of propaganda? You determine what is true and false by considering the claims and considering reality. That is the only way to ever interpret any text ever.



So Ad Hom then?

You don't understand what that term means, do you? If my key argument was an unrelated insult, it would be an ad hominem. If I was to say "You are wrong because you are smelly" - and the claim I was countering wasn't "I smell good"- that would be an ad hominem. However, I have responded amply to your "points". What I may say about your person is thus not an ad hominem.
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E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.
#127OrangeWizardPosted 5/26/2011 8:23:31 PM
the final bahamut posted...

Oh really? I didn't know fish could be unaccustomed to swimming. That's fascinating.

Oh, so you admit you backpedaled. Good.

Which, to reiterate, I didn't.

Yes you did.

First you assumed that the bible was true, and that Jesus and God exist, and are capable of doing the things they were supposed to do.

Now you're questioning the veracity of the bible.

Backpedaling.

Ahh, so we're just incapable of predicting the implications of our posts, is that it?

No, I just overestimated your reading comprehension skills.


No - again - "Word of God" simply means what it says - that it is the word of God. There's nothing preventing it to be leis from God.


God is not an tourist attendant in Hawaii. He gives leis to no one.

But yes, I know what you mean, and I've addressed that below.


I take it you've never considered the subject of propaganda? You determine what is true and false by considering the claims and considering reality. That is the only way to ever interpret any text ever.


So, we're not going to assume that any of it is true, in direct contrast to the assumption brought out in the OP?

We're starting at square one, then? You've backpedaled all the way back to square one?

Well, then If that's the case, then you'll probably consider the claims, and consider reality, and come to the conclusion that God never existed, and that Jesus cannot appear to anyone, as he has no God-given power to do so.


"An honest question" indeed. When your honest question is answered, you backpedal so that you can still have some semblance of an argument.

Your honest question was answered when I told you that God was omniscient.
You got your answer. Deal with it.
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"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#128inferiorweaselPosted 5/31/2011 4:34:46 PM
the final bahamut posted...
I highly doubt these people you speak of have done anything. Have they changed their
lives for God?

Yes.

The people we are talking about are people who cried out for God with all their heart and all their being and in return heard nothing. This, however, will not sway you. Do you know why? Because you subscribe to the answer of the thoughtless and the unthinking. Of those who refuse to examine their own beliefs. Regardless of what you're told, you will continue to assert that they didn't want it hard enough. Even if we show you the tears in their eyes, you will assert that they should have cried longer. If we show you the despair in their hearts as they told their families they did not believe, you would mock it.You lack the will to use the thoughts your God gave you.
You lack the compassion and understanding that was the virtue of your alleged saviour. And where else is the compassion but in the heart, which you deride as sinful?


Or the same argument could be used here. People who really seek out and cry for God. How willing where they to have their entire lives turned upside down. Were they willing to hit rock bottom, loose everything they ever wanted and still hold onto their faith and believe? Or did they want God to come into their lives in the way in which they wanted God to manifest himself. As an atheist for 26 years I had trouble believing in God because I wanted him to represent himself in my life in the way I wanted him to manifest himself. Not in the way God wanted me to change my life. When I devoted my life to God. I lost my home, all my belongings, and most of my friends. I was utterly broken and alone, but then the healing began. I now live a life completely opposite of what I used to desire. I have new friends, and a new path in life. My life has much less stress and the vices that tied me down no longer rule my life. But it wasn't an easy transition for me, nor did it happen over night. It took place over a 3 year time period, and I'm all the stronger for it.

I don't expect you to take my testament as any form of persuasion. But you think I easily discredit those who seek and fail to find God. I don't. My only concern is that they are not willing to stick it out because I honestly believe if you want God in your heart and your life. Everything gets worse before it gets better. Because God breaks us from who we think we are, from the ties and vices of this world. That's what I believe was happening TFB.

I'm in no way refusing that they tried. I'm just refuting that their conviction may not be as strong as you are suggesting. You should know from observation how unwilling people are when it comes to changing things in their lives they are addicted to. Whether it be material possessions, emotional stimulus, or a state of being.

And I find it amusing how you've turned into Kagata. Claiming to know what or how I would react. You claim I am without compassion, you claim I am unable to think. But I'm not the one taking answers I don't like and changing the context. If somebody fully intends to dedicate themselves to Christ. They have to be willing to be a whole new person on the other side. That's why it's called born again. Not saved by the hair on my chinny chin chin. But you'll never accept what I say because you're already locked in your opinion and you're equally as guilty of what you accuse me of being guilty of.
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Live and Learn
Forgiveness is Divine.