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A question about messianic prophecy.

#11kozlo100(Topic Creator)Posted 6/9/2011 11:16:59 AM
The only kings involved are Rezin and Pekah. Are you saying that one or both of them didn't exist?
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#12actarusPosted 6/9/2011 11:21:53 AM
kozlo100 posted...
The only kings involved are Rezin and Pekah. Are you saying that one or both of them didn't exist?
King Immanuel didn't exist.
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Even the smallest star twinkles in the dark
#13kozlo100(Topic Creator)Posted 6/9/2011 11:38:34 AM
Nobody is saying there ever was a king Immanuel. I think you've misunderstood the argument.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#14SuibomPosted 6/9/2011 7:21:56 PM
Doesn't Isaiah 7 say that they'd fall before the Child knew right from wrong? And if both kings fell before Jesus was born, I'm not sure I see any contradiction.
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"Forget global warming! What are we gonna do about universal cooling?"
#15kozlo100(Topic Creator)Posted 6/9/2011 8:30:42 PM
Yea, I thought of that, but I'm not sure it completely solves the problem. The chapter as a whole reads as if this child is to be a sign to Ahaz that these two kings will fall.

It's sort of a poor sign that post-dates the event it signals by hundreds of years, and Ahaz himself was centuries dead by the time Jesus was born.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#16kozlo100(Topic Creator)Posted 6/9/2011 8:34:33 PM
Now that I think about it, it's a little clunky in terms of Jesus' godhood as well. Did Jesus ever not know right from wrong?

Though I'd be willing to dismiss that as simply a reference to a specific age of a child, rather than their actual moral development.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#17SuibomPosted 6/9/2011 8:44:34 PM
Just read it again from the NASB, and there it read that "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good..."

The meaning behind that I'm not sure of, outside of what some call the "age of accountability".

I believe that it's not that Jesus was incapable of sin, but that He just always chose not to. That He was tempted in every way, but overcame every temptation.

I read Isaiah 7 a few more times, but I don't see the "time-stamp" condition listed there. Any help?
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"Forget global warming! What are we gonna do about universal cooling?"
#18kozlo100(Topic Creator)Posted 6/9/2011 9:05:47 PM
Well, just what I said. How is this birth a sign to Ahaz if it doesn't occur until centuries after everyone involved is dead?
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#19allinPosted 6/9/2011 9:57:14 PM
I'm not so sure the sign was to Ahaz.

The Lord speaks to Ahaz to ask for a sign, but Ahaz refuses. Then Isaiah says house of David will receive a sign after complaining that they are trying God. Ahaz specifically did not want to put God to the test, so the sign seems to be for the Israelite people as a whole(other OT prophecies about Jesus are also geared towards redeeming Israel also).

I have to read it more carefully(including preceding chapters to remind myself what exactly is going on here), but just from that one chapter it seems right.
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"Those guys never seem to be in a hurry unless they're destroying something." -Otacon, about politicians
#20kozlo100(Topic Creator)Posted 6/9/2011 11:48:40 PM
I would appreciate some more analysis on the issue.

It still looks like a problem to me, but obviously Christianity doesn't live and die on these two verses, and much better informed people than I have come to a satisfactory conclusion here. I'm just curious as to what the theology around this issue actually is.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick