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Orthodox Problems with Penal Substitution

#1Chaos ScadePosted 6/14/2011 7:33:46 PM
http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/02/orthodox-problems-with-penal-substitution/

Could be an interesting discussion.
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#2narcotic_narcPosted 6/14/2011 7:48:27 PM
i keep forgetting there's no "like" button on here.
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02MAR2011
#3chukie_suePosted 6/14/2011 8:11:34 PM
First article I've enjoyed reading in a while! Very thought provoking. It appears to me that a few of the points won't hold when applied with scrutiny, so I might post a small response tomorrow or something...
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A mighty hand, an outstretched arm - You are the God who saves, Deliverer Your name.
#4Chaos Scade(Topic Creator)Posted 6/14/2011 8:27:09 PM
If you're interested as well, a friend of mine wrote this for his high school senior thesis.

http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/2011/02/the-biblical-doctrine-of-salvation/
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#5chukie_suePosted 6/14/2011 8:37:40 PM
Yes, quite interested. Thanks.
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A mighty hand, an outstretched arm - You are the God who saves, Deliverer Your name.
#6narcotic_narcPosted 6/16/2011 5:19:56 PM
courtesy bump
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not changing until Burn Notice starts up again.
02MAR2011
#7KapoopPosted 6/16/2011 7:46:09 PM
Quite a lot of stuff to go through. I'd go through it, but last time I read something long of this sort, I didn't get a response to my thoughts.

But on a quick scan of the first link, yes Calvinists are a funny lot.


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#8chukie_suePosted 6/16/2011 8:06:27 PM
I still plan on addressing a few of those. Specifically, 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9(absurd imo),10(also absurd imo), and 12. Responses immediately come to mind for those.
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A mighty hand, an outstretched arm - You are the God who saves, Deliverer Your name.
#9Chaos Scade(Topic Creator)Posted 6/16/2011 8:21:03 PM
9(absurd imo),

I don't see why. If Christ's death was the only thing that actually mattered so far as the atonement for our sins was concerned, then why is the resurrection needed beyond being a symbolic gesture of sorts? I might add that I have heard Evangelicals say to me, including on here, that it was simply to prove that Christ really was the Son of God and that God can do anything and it was a symbolic representation of the resurrection to come. A Baptist friend of mine (back when I was still Protestant) gave me a different explanation that if Christ didn't come back from the dead, He couldn't intercede for us as our High Priest and His sacrifice would have meant nothing. Of course, that makes me wonder what that says for the Protestants who go on about Christ's "finished work" on the Cross that nothing can be added to.

10(also absurd imo)

I wouldn't say that it's absurd, but I can think of a couple of responses you might have. For example, the fact that the previous step in the development of penal substitution, Anselm's theory of satisfaction, held that as God was infinitely offended by man's sin, and therefore in order that God could be satisfied, a human had to be infinitely shamed, but as man is finite the only man who could be infinitely shamed would be one who was God Himself; ergo, the incarnation of the God-man to be infinitely shamed in order to avert God's wrath from mankind who had shamed Him. I would guess that the penal substitution model would modify that and say that an infinite payment was needed for a sin against an infinite God and therefore the substitution had to be someone capable of paying an infinite price. It still seems ludicrous to me, but I agree, there is a way of factoring the Incarnation into the substitutionary atonement/satisfaction models that make them internally consistent in that area.
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#10LinkFanaticPosted 6/16/2011 10:31:32 PM
How could I have missed this topic? I've read through a bit of the article, and I'm really liking it so far. As chukie said, very thought provoking. Thanks for sharing, Chaos.
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