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Rational thought, the true enemy of religion

#51AtomicItalianPosted 6/18/2011 1:47:54 PM
Islam is at fault all the things its extremist followers do, and are talked into by lunatics like Bin Laden who twist and pervert the faith to motivate his followers.

No, that's objectively false. Hitler's commanders denounced the Bible as Jewish propaganda , which caused a major group of German Christians to turn away from the party. There were opposition groups of churches in Germany from the get go, but after the Bible was denounced it grew. The church was one of the strongest and most persistent hold outs in all of Nazi germany. Were there state sponsored churches like they have today in China? Yes. Those were primarily meant to control the citizens. but the actual people who believed in the Bible, not just going through the cultural motions, came to stand against the Nazis.

Not that it really matters because, really, who cares? It's not like Christianity bred the Nazis, and it was Christians on all sides who fought the Nazis, so I don't get your point here.

However, to say that because they bought into these things they're not to be considered Christians/Muslims? "No true Scotsman."

Wrong. No True Scotsman doesn't work here. No True Scotsman only works when you're applying entry requirements into a group that are more strict than the groups actual requirements. For example, if someone were to say "No true Scotsman drinks English beer." That is the fallacy, because all that is required of a Scotsman is to be born in Scotland. Christianity is different. There are rules and ways of living that are laid out for all of us to follow. I can look at a pedophile priest and say "that guy isn't a Christian." and can back up my claim with the Scripture that he and I both say we follow. I've had to explain this like 1000 times on this board.

You can easily claim that because that's exactly what he did.

Maybe before denouncing it as Jewish propaganda.

True. You can only blame the Christians themselves for buying into whatever their leader told them was right. If only religion actually taught people not to believe anything, even its own teachings, unquestioningly...

Tell that to all the churches that opposed Hitler during WWII.

So you're saying Hitler and the Nazis didn't use Christianity to motivate the soldiers and people of Germany? You're saying they weren't Christian? You're saying Christianity had nothing to do with the Nazi movement?

You do realize google exists, right?


So does wikipedia. Where did you get your information, Atheist Experience?
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This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 1 John 3:16
#52AtomicItalianPosted 6/18/2011 1:48:32 PM
Once in a Life Time

Fortunately, AtomicItalian, Christianity doesn't have an unquestionable authority on morality. I would also call yours on murderers and Christians irrational, as being a good person is based on what you do and what you believe, not to what you belong to. It doesn't matter if your beliefs say that Christians are the "goodiest of the good", that does not make it true.

So wait, Iím having trouble following you here. How does what a person does/believe make them good or not good? What makes the action of killing inherently wrong, and the action of, say, helping heal someone inherently good? You seem to be just pushing your subjective morals on me and saying that mine are wrong and yours are right and thatís that no questions. What gives your morals any value?

Secondly a belief in heaven and hell can be VERY dangerous, one of the most dangerous beliefs in existence. It's great if it's good people telling good people to do good things to get into heaven, but unfortunately that isn't always the case. Whether you like it or not, a belief in the afterlife can be used to convince people to do - and unfortunately this has happened far too often - terrible things. Like what's happening in Uganda with homosexuals, or what's happening in the Philippines with birth control and rapid reproduction on a tiny island, or with what happened with Peter Sutcliffe here in the UK, or used an excuse to restrict what people can and cannot do in America.

A belief in the afterlife can also urge people on to do great things. Letís not forget that the first hospitals, schools, and charity organizations were all started by ďfanaticalĒ Christians. Even today, Christians far outnumber the non religious who go to live and work in poor/oppressed areas to try to help. Sure, non-religious organizations exist and do good things (usually) but they arenít long term. Christians go there and stay there.

Iíll be the first to admit that religion, like love, which is itís core, can make people the best they possibly can be, or turn people into monsters. The question is, is it worth neutering the good in order to remove the bad? I say no, because at least with Christianity, the bad is in no way comparable to the good.

Bahamut

Bull. F***ing. S***.

WBC is a small bunch of loud idiots, and nothing more. Right now there are Christian groups killing people, torturing kids and much worse. These are the people you should compare to Al Qaeda, and they are just as bad if not worse.


Tactfully put. Swearing always makes people seem so much more legit and intelligent. Anyway, what groups are you referring to?

NSM

The framework is itself irrational, just like in the case of the person who thinks he's eating Elvis Presley when what he's really eating are pancakes.

Itís only irrational because youíre judging it from your own little platform. A materialist belief system seems ridiculous to me, and I think youíre absurd for accepting one. However, Iím not going to call you irrational for it, because I recognize that our framework for ďwhat is a rational beliefĒ is different.

Which is why the framework of your worldview is irrational.

Itís unfortunate you choose to be snarky rather than engage me.

People treat your ideas as rational and respect your opinions because, as I've argued from the beginning, people treat religion with an unwarranted level of respect. In what other context would you consider it rational to believe that the majority of the near 7 billion people on earth will suffer eternity in hell?
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This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 1 John 3:16
#53AtomicItalianPosted 6/18/2011 1:48:57 PM
Thatís an awfully specific question. Thatís like asking ďin what context, other than religion, would you think it rational that heaven exists.Ē

Well, none. But thatís because those things are specific to religion. LikeÖIím not really sure what youíre getting at here, thatís sort of an inane question.

Yeah, only to condemn them to an eternity of suffering and torment, as opposed to the comparatively fleeting and negligible effect of causing physical harm and death. Much better.,

Wow, you are more crazy than the extremists weíre talking about, NSM. You seriously think that my belief that those who do not accept Christ go to hell is just as bad as extremist acts of terrorism? If Iím wrong, nothing happens. If Muslims extremists are wrong everyone is still dead and their families still grieve.. You need to sit down and take a hard look at reality, amigo.

Fortunately your beliefs don't have the market on "doing good" cornered, and others can do good (and be genuinely good to others, contrary to your argument) without subscribing to your dangerous and illogical ideology.

No, they do things, slap value on them, and ascribe the definition ďgoodnessĒ to them. There is no such thing as an objectively good action or an objectively bad one. Come on, youíre better than this NSM.
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This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 1 John 3:16