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So basically god = everything that's impossible.

#1Faust_8Posted 6/18/2011 4:38:04 PM
Kinda exasperated right now, so sorry for the tone.

But basically, let's look at some of the claims that some theists attribute to god.

1) He's outside time and space.

2) He knows everything that will happen and yet can interfere, oh and free will still exists somehow.

3) He can do the logically impossible.

The problem with number one is...all of existence depends on time and space. Without space, you are nowhere. Without time, you can't act, because you can't change. "Outside time and space" is just words, unless you can prove me wrong. Just like Godzilla and talking dogs are just words...but at least those you can imagine. You can't imagine something being outside of time and space at all, and if you do, you are in fact imagining them in time and space.

The problem with number two is, like fudrick said, if it's possible to know the future at all, then the future is predetermined. Also, if you know the future, you can't act and change that future. I can't say tomorrow's lottery numbers and then turn around and change them.

The problem with number three is...self-evident. If drawing a square circle was possible, it wouldn't be a logical contradiction in the first place. A square circle defies even...definition.

Now, let's wait for the theists to come in and say this is all pointless because we can't know god, the biggest cop-out in history. Even if that's true, it's not worth TRYING?

All of this sounds utterly ridiculous if you don't already consider god an absolute truth.
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"We think the future that we will find together is greater than the assumptions of our past."
#2SirThinkALotPosted 6/18/2011 4:44:01 PM
Points 1 and 2 are highly debateable. #3 is rejected by almost every serious philosopher/theologian.
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#3Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 6/18/2011 4:48:53 PM
That's why I said some claims by some theists. I was just in a topic of a theist saying god can draw a square circle, and we would be able to if he showed us.

#1 and #2 also have those that agree.

But I never said all theists think this way. However I would love to see someone convince me that some of these claims have any actual meaning behind their words.
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"We think the future that we will find together is greater than the assumptions of our past."
#4CIA911Posted 6/18/2011 5:21:35 PM(edited)
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.


or what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

TC you have convinced me otherwise. Apparently you are the exception.

Verse should read:

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God and Faust

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And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
#5Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 6/18/2011 5:39:24 PM(edited)
Again, this is nothing but a cop-out.

That means nothing unless you assume the Bible is true.

It's also another way of saying "don't think about it" and/or "don't question authority."

I don't assume I know. I want to know more. I want things that defy explanation to be explained, or else the theists know no more about it than I do.

Unless you're willing to posit that these claims actually make sense WITHOUT religion in the picture. Try to explain them with an objective, neutral view. If you do, you'll run into the same problems I/we do, and will thus have to admit that they don't make any sense at all, just plain straight up ignore that and BELIEVE.

I'm just tired of people like you trying to pass this stuff as obvious/logical/not ridiculous, and that the atheists like me are somehow the biased or ignorant ones. You act like you're not, you know, contradicting reality.

In my experience, it's the group that asks no questions that is more ignorant than the group that does.

/exasperation
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"We think the future that we will find together is greater than the assumptions of our past."
#6FireFlameSpitaPosted 6/18/2011 5:39:15 PM
Well who are you to flame what God can or can't do?
#7Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 6/18/2011 5:41:47 PM
I would imagine that god would be the most resistant to flaming. As if flaming is what I'm doing.

Who are you to not question? Since when has not questioning things led to progress?
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"We think the future that we will find together is greater than the assumptions of our past."
#8FireFlameSpitaPosted 6/18/2011 5:54:59 PM
Meant claim sorry
#9CIA911Posted 6/18/2011 6:07:14 PM(edited)
Again, this is nothing but a cop-out.

That means nothing unless you assume the Bible is true.

It's also another way of saying "don't think about it" and/or "don't question authority."

I don't assume I know. I want to know more. I want things that defy explanation to be explained, or else the theists know no more about it than I do.


Look man...it's not OUR fault that YOU don't believe the Bible is true. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for here. You can call it a cop-out, but I can just as easily say not believing in the Bible because it doesn't make sense to you is a cop-out. You can think about it all you want, question God if you want to I don't care, question whether he exists, question what he can and can't do... just don't expect any sort of result that is going to satisfy you, and don't be all "No no cop-out that argument doesn't make sense" simply because we can't explain it to you in a way that you want to hear.

Gosh. When did people become this whiny ?

In my experience, it's the group that asks no questions that is more ignorant than the group that does.

So write a book about it.

Who are you to not question? Since when has not questioning things led to progress?

Since when...has questions anything about God led to progress for you guys ? I'd have to assume never...or else you wouldn't still be athiests.

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And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
#10Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 6/18/2011 6:10:45 PM
Look man...it's not OUR fault that YOU don't believe the Bible is true.

It is when you try to use it to justify what you say.

I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for here. You can call it a cop-out, but I can just as easily say not believing in the Bible because it doesn't make sense to you is a cop-out.

You really want to set that precedent? It's a cop-out that you're not Hindu.

Also, methinks you don't know what a cop-out is. Hint: the guy not making any extraordinary claims isn't copping out of anything, especially when it's him asking the questions (as in, he's not avoiding answering any).

You can think about it all you want, question God if you want to I don't care, question whether he exists, question what he can and can't do... just don't expect any sort of result that is going to satisfy you, and don't be all "No no cop-out that argument doesn't make sense" simply because we can't explain it to you in a way that you want to hear.

You (or anyone else) can't explain it AT ALL, that's what I'm getting at. It defies explanation, and yet you consider it truth. Since when do people consider things true that they literally are clueless about? I admit I'm pretty clueless about quantum physics but I don't defend it to the death either, nor do I get offended when people don't understand it.

Gosh. When did people become this whiny ?

Sorry for trying to hold humanity to a certain intellectually honest standard. Sorry for thinking the future can be better than the past.
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"We think the future that we will find together is greater than the assumptions of our past."