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Errors in Christianity/Catholicism

#61OrangeWizardPosted 7/19/2011 5:08:50 PM
My maturity is irrelevant to his maturity.
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#62Burning_WolfXPosted 7/19/2011 9:54:46 PM(edited)
"Yes."
So you don't believe in Heaven either, then? No afterlife, period?

"I'm pretty sure that was a vision, and not real."
What makes you believe that? Peter, James and John sure didn't seem to think of it as just a vision. If Peter actually offered to build three tents for Jesus, Moses and Elijah, then either Moses and Elijah were really there with Jesus, or the apostles were tripping hardcore. Typically in the Bible, people in visions don't offer to build tents for imaginary people.

"I'm pretty sure that was a parable, and thus, not real."
Then why did Jesus choose that imagery, that scenario? Why even bother talking about the dead as being awake and feeling pain or being in the Bosom of Abraham, if such a thing doesn't happen?
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#63OrangeWizardPosted 7/19/2011 10:41:27 PM
Burning_WolfX posted...
"Yes."
So you don't believe in Heaven either, then? No afterlife, period?


I believe in Heaven, but I believe we will have to be raised up as a living being by God in order to be there, since we can't be there while being dead, since the dead are conscious of nothing.


What makes you believe that?


Because Jesus said:
"Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead"


Then why did Jesus choose that imagery, that scenario?


Because it suited the point he wanted to get across.

If that were an accurate depiction of Hell, you could hold a conversation in it between people in Heaven. That would be pretty weird. They'd be shouting all sorts of profanities all the time.




Why even bother talking about the dead as being awake and feeling pain or being in the Bosom of Abraham, if such a thing doesn't happen?


Is Abraham really a giant so that you could fit in his Bosom?

But the rich man (Religious rulers of the day) died to his former position, and Lazarus (people who hungered for spiritual food) did too, but he was raised up to an esteemed position, and the rich man was put in a contemptible position. He wasn't going to be destroyed, because that's not what was going to happen in real life.
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"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#64Burning_WolfXPosted 7/20/2011 9:20:24 AM
OrangeWizard posted...

"I believe in Heaven, but I believe we will have to be raised up as a living being by God in order to be there, since we can't be there while being dead, since the dead are conscious of nothing."
We will all be resurrected to be judged and sent to Heaven or Hell, I agree. But as for the dead being consicous of nothing, see Rev 6:9-11.
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Also see 2 Corinthians 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

and Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

I can go on. Vision or no vision, again and again the dead are being depicted as being with Christ, or actively talking and doing stuff. Why would the writers of the Bible use imagery that is blatantly false?

Because Jesus said:
"Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead"

But, if the point of the Transfiguration was to show the divinity and glory of Jesus, then why bring in supposed apparitions of Moses and Elijah in addition to the other stuff that was happening? Why not just let the divinity shine through? Also, care to address why Peter offered to build tents for apparitions? No one else reacted like that to a vision. There's a lot of falling prostrate and worshiping God, a lot of writing stuff down, but no offering to build tents.

"Because it suited the point he wanted to get across.
If that were an accurate depiction of Hell, you could hold a conversation in it between people in Heaven. That would be pretty weird. They'd be shouting all sorts of profanities all the time."

Then explain the Hebrew belief in Sheol, where the dead dwell? At least all the other parables made sense in their imagery. I don't have a clue why anyone would use imagery that supposes a blatantly false belief, other than to point out how stupid and false the belief is. Jesus wasn't doing that there.

Another question... Was Jesus unconscious while He was dead, or was he breaking death's hold over us and ministering to the dead?

"Is Abraham really a giant so that you could fit in his Bosom?"
Alright, now you're twisting my words. I never said that the Bosom of Abraham meant that we would literally be in Abraham's chest.

"But the rich man (Religious rulers of the day) died to his former position, and Lazarus (people who hungered for spiritual food) did too, but he was raised up to an esteemed position, and the rich man was put in a contemptible position. He wasn't going to be destroyed, because that's not what was going to happen in real life."
I never said the rich man would be destroyed, or that any of the damned would be destroyed.
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#65OrangeWizardPosted 7/20/2011 11:52:50 AM
Burning_WolfX posted...
OrangeWizard posted...

"I believe in Heaven, but I believe we will have to be raised up as a living being by God in order to be there, since we can't be there while being dead, since the dead are conscious of nothing."
We will all be resurrected to be judged and sent to Heaven or Hell, I agree. But as for the dead being consicous of nothing, see Rev 6:9-11.
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


And why do you think that part of Revelations is literal, when the whole book is very clearly a vision?


Also see 2 Corinthians 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Who is the speaker here? Is he dead?

and Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

How does this apply? I'm sorry, I don't see it.

I can go on. Vision or no vision, again and again the dead are being depicted as being with Christ, or actively talking and doing stuff. Why would the writers of the Bible use imagery that is blatantly false?

What do you mean "again and again?" I didn't read that happening once in the verses you showed me.

But, if the point of the Transfiguration was to show the divinity and glory of Jesus,


And it did.


then why bring in supposed apparitions of Moses and Elijah in addition to the other stuff that was happening?


Because Jesus was like these two prophets, and he showed that they were all on the same side.



Why not just let the divinity shine through? Also, care to address why Peter offered to build tents for apparitions?


Because he really saw them, or so he thought. That's how visions work. It's not like you know you're dreaming and that it's all fake.



No one else reacted like that to a vision.


No one else in the position of setting tents when they received a vision.



Then explain the Hebrew belief in Sheol, where the dead dwell?

The dead dwell there. That's all.

At least all the other parables made sense in their imagery. I don't have a clue why anyone would use imagery that supposes a blatantly false belief,

It wasn't false. It was a personification of what went on for the sake of the story.


Another question... Was Jesus unconscious while He was dead, or was he breaking death's hold over us and ministering to the dead?



He was unconscious when he was dead.
---
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#66OrangeWizardPosted 7/20/2011 11:52:57 AM


"Is Abraham really a giant so that you could fit in his Bosom?"
Alright, now you're twisting my words. I never said that the Bosom of Abraham meant that we would literally be in Abraham's chest.


You're taking the rest of the parable as literal, but not this part?


I never said the rich man would be destroyed, or that any of the damned would be destroyed.


I know, but if an accurate portrayal of what happened when one dies was used in the parable, it would have stopped at "They both died. The end."
---
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#67Burning_WolfXPosted 7/20/2011 7:24:18 PM
And why do you think that part of Revelations is literal, when the whole book is very clearly a vision?
The beasts, the riders, the numbers, etc, etc. are all symbolic, yes. Perhaps you can explain to me the symbolic nature of dead, disembodied souls of martyrs being under an altar crying out? Tell me, if it's a vision, does what it depicts therefore have no merit? Are all visions dismissable out of hand?

Who is the speaker here? Is he dead?
Does it matter either way?

How does this apply? I'm sorry, I don't see it.
Paul isn't saying he has a choice between being alive and ministering and being dead and being completely unconscious. He's saying that he has a choice of being alive and ministering, or dying and being with Christ. The fact that he knows that he'll be with Christ would logically imply that when he's dead, he'll somehow know that he'll be with Christ. Moreover, I don't think dying to be completely unconscious and unfeeling is exactly gain. Do you?

What do you mean "again and again?" I didn't read that happening once in the verses you showed me.

Because Jesus was like these two prophets, and he showed that they were all on the same side.
He was doing that long before the Transfiguration. The Apostles knew Whose side Christ was on from the very start. I don't think they needed a reminder.

Because he really saw them, or so he thought. That's how visions work. It's not like you know you're dreaming and that it's all fake.


No one else in the position of setting tents when they received a vision.
Not like the Apostles were; they were just waltzing up a mountain with Jesus.

The dead dwell there. That's all.
Jewish tradition would beg to differ, as would Christian tradition.

"It wasn't false. It was a personification of what went on for the sake of the story."
A personification? I think I'm being dense on this particular point.

He was unconscious when he was dead.
The earliest traditions of Christianity beg to differ. However, IDK if you're Sola Scriptura or not; that's another argument altogether.
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#68Burning_WolfXPosted 7/20/2011 7:28:12 PM
You're taking the rest of the parable as literal, but not this part?
No, because I understand some basic concepts about afterlife according to the Hebrews.
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