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Superman solves the ground zero cross debate.

#31IvashankoPosted 8/6/2011 4:58:09 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#32DbzmaniaxPosted 8/6/2011 5:26:25 PM
Ivashanko posted...
I have seen many Buddhists, and many Muslims, who have at their deaths been marked with a Cross- oftentimes at their own choice, or at the choice of their (co-religious) families.

I do not know any Muslim who will consent to their grave being marked with a cross. There is no doubt whatsoever that such a embellishment is forbidden in Islam. I will be very surprised if there is a single Islamic scholar in the world today who will say that doing so is acceptable.
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#33ForsakenHermitPosted 8/6/2011 8:18:53 PM
I really don't get this debate at all. The cross was part of the world trade center for one and there are other religious memorials being included in the museum. As long as the religious part of the cross is prefaced with "Christians believe that..." I really don't have a problem with it. If atheists want to donate a big Darwin fish in memory of atheists that lost their lives on 9/11 I'd be ok with that too.
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#34the final bahamutPosted 8/6/2011 10:54:57 PM
I have seen many Buddhists, and many Muslims, who have at their deaths been marked with a Cross- oftentimes at their own choice, or at the choice of their (co-religious) families. A variety of other faiths as well- Shamanists, Jews, even one (though I'm not sure how far his faith reached) Shinto died with a Cross marking his grave. Such a thing is, almost, a universial marking of the grave. Particularly when time to move from the grave is pressing- though that isn't a problem here, I suppose.

I believe you are so full of waste products from the metabolic pathways of a bovine organism that if we made you into a homogeneous mass and spread you over an otherwise sufficient agricultural plantation we would have quite a good harvest.
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E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
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#35gamesrgreatPosted 8/6/2011 10:56:58 PM

From: Ivashanko | #031
I have seen many Buddhists, and many Muslims, who have at their deaths been marked with a Cross- oftentimes at their own choice, or at the choice of their (co-religious) families. A variety of other faiths as well- Shamanists, Jews, even one (though I'm not sure how far his faith reached) Shinto died with a Cross marking his grave. Such a thing is, almost, a universial marking of the grave. Particularly when time to move from the grave is pressing- though that isn't a problem here, I suppose.



wtf how do you know so many dead people? And why are they choosing to be marked with crosses?
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#36IvashankoPosted 8/6/2011 11:07:50 PM(edited)
I do not know any Muslim who will consent to their grave being marked with a cross. There is no doubt whatsoever that such a embellishment is forbidden in Islam. I will be very surprised if there is a single Islamic scholar in the world today who will say that doing so is acceptable.

I assume it has to do with being what we call a 'Soviet Muslim'- or, a Muslim in ethnicity only. This occurs a great deal within Russia herself, and many of the boardering countries also have such practises.

I believe you are so full of waste products from the metabolic pathways of a bovine organism that if we made you into a homogeneous mass and spread you over an otherwise sufficient agricultural plantation we would have quite a good harvest.

I have seen each and everything I have said I have seen. That being said, I recognize that I was being stupid in not thinking about the cultural that I, and many in the lands I have known those faiths I mentioned, grew up in. I knew it wouldn't be normal outside of Soviet lands, but I would have seen it as being at least known to the majority. Thinking about it now, it doesn't actually matter if it is known to most or not- so, in the end, I agree with Kozlo's earlier stated viewpoint.

wtf how do you know so many dead people? And why are they choosing to be marked with crosses?

I travel much, and many times I find the elders to be fascinating people to talk to. Also, many of these places are striken by war and poverty. As to why they are marked with a cross, I would assume it is the reason stated to DBZ- all of my examples given were within lands once controlled by the Soviet Union, and many (most? all?) of these people have had their ancestorial religious ties broken, or at least heavily hurt, by the Union. Outside of the Caucases, Islam in Russia is actually dying- whatever the polititions here want to tell people in the hopes of complacency and to make them fear.

Well that answers that I guess.

Oh, my mistake. I meant to say ' what was formerly Soviet lands'. I am not so old as to remember the Union itself. But, yes, that is the answer, unforunately.
#37fudrickPosted 8/6/2011 11:04:56 PM
gamesrgreat posted...
wtf how do you know so many dead people?

Ivashanko posted...
I knew it wouldn't be normal outside of Soviet lands

Well that answers that I guess.
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#38gamesrgreatPosted 8/6/2011 11:11:28 PM

From: Ivashanko | #036
I travel much, and many times I find the elders to be fascinating people to talk to. Also, many of these places are striken by war and poverty. As to why they are marked with a cross, I would assume it is the reason stated to DBZ- all of my examples given were within lands once controlled by the Soviet Union, and many (most? all?) of these people have had their ancestorial religious ties broken, or at least heavily hurt, by the Union.


So did you actually know these people or just hear the stories from the elders?
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#39the final bahamutPosted 8/6/2011 11:12:30 PM
I have seen each and everything I have said I have seen.

Nu you have not. You said - given the context - that you had seen people with non-Christian religions choose a cross. This is not true given your last post. Instead, what you gave seen is people with non-Christian ethnicities choose the cross after they'd lived - and presumably been raised - in Russia.
I can't say I'm surprised at your inability to discern between the two. After all, you're Russian.
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E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.
#40IvashankoPosted 8/6/2011 11:20:56 PM(edited)
Nu you have not. You said - given the context - that you had seen people with non-Christian religions choose a cross. This is not true given your last post. Instead, what you gave seen is people with non-Christian ethnicities choose the cross after they'd lived - and presumably been raised - in Russia.
I can't say I'm surprised at your inability to discern between the two. After all, you're Russian.


Or countries outside Russia. The Soviet Union, anyways.

As for the 'you're Russian' comment, I will not take offense- the insult is probably aimed at me, so in this case it is justified. These people said they were Muslims/Buddhists/etc. According to the internet, 'cultural Christian', 'cafeteria Christian', and other such terms would be the American way of describing Christians who are like this. They, usually, know the basics of their faith, but not much more than that, and oftentimes aren't really interested in learning more than that. It is difficult to state who is truely what sometimes, you must admit.

So did you actually know these people or just hear the stories from the elders?

I knew these people or I saw their graves and talked to people who knew them.