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Question for theists regarding prayer

#21hunter_gohanPosted 8/8/2011 3:03:10 PM
kozlo100 posted...
Some evidence is in. In my estimation there is more to the issue than which section of an EEG lights up when. There is much else that data point must be compared against before I would be comfortable reaching a final conclusion, even if it does support my working theory.

All the evidence we have right now says that our brain is us. All our thoughts and such happen in the brain. To assume there is something more to the issue, then something other then the brain has to also be involved. Theists call this other thing a soul or spirit. There is no evidence of any such thing, so why should we worry about something for which there is no evidence.
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If you find yourself falling into madness -- dive. -Malkavian Clan Book 1st edition
#22hunter_gohanPosted 8/8/2011 3:08:58 PM
Patriotwolf posted...
hunter_gohan posted...

With respect, linking to and reading some article (especially on wiki and not an actually psychology website), and trying to then label someone, especially when you haven't studied psychology (and even if you have) can do more harm than good or be even flat out dangerous.

Again, there is a differences between hearing something in you head, which is like a thought (very common), and a audible voice. Although the latter requires more examination, it is not automatically indicative of a disorder or trauma


Ok, please quote where I labeled or diagnosed anyone.........

All I said was that it is a possible symptom of a larger problem, and that they should seek out a doctor to make sure they don't have anything really bad.

So Wikipedia is wrong and lying? Are you disputing that hearing voices could be a possible symptom of schizophrenia or mania?
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If you find yourself falling into madness -- dive. -Malkavian Clan Book 1st edition
#23kozlo100Posted 8/8/2011 3:15:09 PM(edited)
All the evidence we have right now says that our brain is us.

I don't dispute that. I'm not invoking a soul or spirit here. You can't read my thoughts via a brain scan, so the data on what is happening in the brain during prayer is inconclusive in and of itself. My own perception of what's going on in my head still factors in, since I can read my own thoughts.

Also, given that I described my experience with answered prayers as inspired thoughts, it is not inconsistent for the same areas of my brain to be showing activity in the same regions.

Imagine I have a machine that can beam an opinion into your brain. The same areas of the brain light up when you consult your own opinion as when my machine is implanting one. Would you take this as evidence that my machine does not exist?

Given all of that, the data simply isn't enough to hang my hat on and be done with the issue.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#24ledzepfan15Posted 8/8/2011 3:22:09 PM
As the future psychologist here I can say most of you have no idea what you are talking about.

Undergrad or grad school?
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"If you think, you are late. If you are late, you use strength. If you use strength, you tire. And if you tire, you die." - Saulo Ribeiro
#25PatriotwolfPosted 8/8/2011 3:31:44 PM
hunter_gohan posted...
Ok, please quote where I labeled or diagnosed anyone.........

All I said was that it is a possible symptom of a larger problem, and that they should seek out a doctor to make sure they don't have anything really bad.

So Wikipedia is wrong and lying? Are you disputing that hearing voices could be a possible symptom of schizophrenia or mania?


You seemed pretty sure of yourself. And I am not saying Wiki is lying, just that it is likely not as reliable as other, first party sources. If you need some medical information in a pinch, like how to stabilize someones neck properly, would you use wiki or Webmd (or some other medical website? Why take the risk?


ledzepfan15 posted...
As the future psychologist here I can say most of you have no idea what you are talking about.

Undergrad or grad school?


Undergrad, getting my bachelors this year
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"You're just one big headache, and I got a pistol full of aspirin"
"Who cares if you screw others?"-1337toothbrush
#26hunter_gohanPosted 8/8/2011 3:40:55 PM
kozlo100 posted...
I don't dispute that. I'm not invoking a soul or spirit here. You can't read my thoughts via a brain scan, so the data on what is happening in the brain during prayer is inconclusive in and of itself. My own perception of what's going on in my head still factors in, since I can read my own thoughts.

Also, given that I described my experience with answered prayers as inspired thoughts, it is not inconsistent for the same areas of my brain to be showing activity in the same regions.

It is entirely inconsistent if god is supposed to be another entity that is not you. When thinking about other people's views a different part of the brain is activated then when thinking about your own views. If god was not just inside peoples heads then that region is what should be activated when thinking about god's views.

Imagine I have a machine that can beam an opinion into your brain. The same areas of the brain light up when you consult your own opinion as when my machine is implanting one. Would you take this as evidence that my machine does not exist?

This seems inconsistent with the fact that we already know that thinking about other peoples views activates a separate region, why would this device not activate that region? If this machine did exist, I would assume people would be aware that it's a machine giving them the opinion, so them changing their opinion would have no affect on the beamed in opinion. This is not what we see with god's opinion. The scientists found that by manipulating the subjects views it would consistently influence their views about god's beliefs indicating they are one in the same.

Given all of that, the data simply isn't enough to hang my hat on and be done with the issue.

Oh, in science you never hang your hat and be done with anything. Really I just started on this because I'm used to seeing/using provisionally to mean "until the evidence comes in", so I though you were unaware of the evidence. After all, no one says "I provisionally think I'd fall and die if I stepped off this skyscraper". If you just mean something like tentatively, then I may have just wasted our time on a mis-communication.
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If you find yourself falling into madness -- dive. -Malkavian Clan Book 1st edition
#27hunter_gohanPosted 8/8/2011 3:53:29 PM
Patriotwolf posted...
You seemed pretty sure of yourself.

Ok, my first post, that was probably uncalled for. In my defense though, I really did not know that you could hear voices without also having a major problem at that time. Though I will stick by my second post and agree I'm pretty damn sure you should get checked up by a doctor if you're hearing voices. It may just be harmless and not a sign of any other problems, but do you really want to take that chance?

And I am not saying Wiki is lying, just that it is likely not as reliable as other, first party sources.

Oh I realize that, it just kind of annoys me when people bring out "oh it's just wikipedia" when you quote a small portion of it. It's a straight up Ad Hominem. If what I quoted is incorrect then show it, if it is correct then why harp on the source? It's not like Wikipedia has a reputation for posting nothing but lies like conservapedia. Not to mention wiki sources like everything, if you really want the first party sources wiki links you right to em.

If you need some medical information in a pinch, like how to stabilize someones neck properly, would you use wiki or Webmd (or some other medical website? Why take the risk?

Well, personally, I'd just call 911. :p
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If you find yourself falling into madness -- dive. -Malkavian Clan Book 1st edition
#28PatriotwolfPosted 8/8/2011 4:41:15 PM
hunter_gohan posted...
Ok, my first post, that was probably uncalled for. In my defense though, I really did not know that you could hear voices without also having a major problem at that time. Though I will stick by my second post and agree I'm pretty damn sure you should get checked up by a doctor if you're hearing voices. It may just be harmless and not a sign of any other problems, but do you really want to take that chance?

Oh I realize that, it just kind of annoys me when people bring out "oh it's just wikipedia" when you quote a small portion of it. It's a straight up Ad Hominem. If what I quoted is incorrect then show it, if it is correct then why harp on the source? It's not like Wikipedia has a reputation for posting nothing but lies like conservapedia. Not to mention wiki sources like everything, if you really want the first party sources wiki links you right to em.

Well, personally, I'd just call 911. :p


What if you were out hiking? Its just a hypothetical situation anyway.

The Wiki article seems to suggest that schizophrenia and mania are the only real causes if there is a mental diagnoses, which is not the case. In addition, it leaves out forms of trauma (such as physical abuse, emotional abandonment), and dozens of other triggers. The article also seems to say that lesions, abscesses etc... play a bigger part than in reality and they don't often cause only one symptom. Or the factors of age

An example of this is something the article mentioned called musical ear syndrome, which can manifest fully more so in DJs and production crews for bands, especially when under stress/sleep deprivation etc.. and often times goes away with a nice vacation. allot of people experience a slight case of this from time to time. In fact, some song writers will intentionally write a song in such a manner that it sticks in your head longer due to its melody, or it being "catchy" as most people call it. (though this can also be unintentional)

Attributing things such as lesions on the brain stem or strokes etc.. is inaccurate in the vast majority of cases when it comes to MES

Finally, the article doesn't mention that musical ear syndrome (as well as hearing voices) can occur in people that require hearing aids, or lose their hearing. Which is the brain just trying to deal with a physical symptom in some way. just as it would if you lost sight in one eye.

In short, the article isn't lying. some of it is a bit inaccurate, maybe outdated. Mainly, its simply not thorough enough
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"You're just one big headache, and I got a pistol full of aspirin"
"Who cares if you screw others?"-1337toothbrush