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ATTN: Jews and Judaism experts - Question concerning pre-Genesis conditions

#11mercuryinkPosted 8/13/2011 5:39:35 PM
I know a little something of it. First, some backstory:
I did this research while I was writing a SF/F story about the ten plagues having human carriers. Each time a carrier died, the plague was passed on to someone else, generation after generation, until modern times, when my story was set.
Anyway, one of the things about the ninth plague, the plague of darkness, is that the text in Exodus states that the darkness held the Egyptians in place. And, in a sense, it should; you don’t walk around when you can’t see, for fear of walking into something dangerous. At some point in time, someone hit upon the idea of a tangible darkness, and that was what held them in place. A physical darkness, a place where you could not move into, and many traditions, particularly Kabbalistic ones (and when you write a fantasy story based on Jewish lore, Kabbalah is a must) hold that this was the nature of the ninth plague. The SF writer in me thought that such a darkness would be somewhere the universe, our dimension, ceases to be. You couldn’t MOVE into that space because there was, in a sense, no space to move into.
I went on to have my bearer of Darkness be a sort of a plague-killer, hunting down the other plaguebearers and opening a void where they stood, removing them and their plague from existence, then finally taking his own life, ending the curse once and for all, but that’s not the story I’m really here to tell.

Where in the Bible do we have a place of darkness where the universe as we know it does not exist? Yes, that’s right, right there in the beginning (this was actually the line of thought I had my character use to figure out the true nature of his plague, by remembering the Torah and putting two and two together, until he understands that the power of Darkness is creating pockets of what he calls “Beforeness”).

I had the opportunity to run my idea by a number of rabbis, who said that yes, it was a notion that had been previously explored, and also spoke to Dr. Herman Presby, an orthodox Jewish… photonics guy (Photonicist? Photonologist?) who has worked for many, many years at Bell Labs in NJ, and actually carpooled with one of the guys who got the Nobel for discovering the echoes of the Big Bang (until he got the Nobel… “Herman, when you win the Nobel Prize, you take a limo to work.” “Well, have it pick me up!”), who also affirmed the possibility. HaMakot shel Choshech, the Plague of Darkness, would have been very much like that proto-Night, where day and night as we know them did not exist, for what we know is still, in a sense, Day, even at night (this is why “days” on a Jewish calendar start at nightfall, because Night preceded Day). We may be in the shadows from around 8 PM until around 5 AM, but there’s still light in the world.
I don’t know what you’d expect for pre-Genesis figures and events, as that’s kinda the point; the universe was a void of chaos, utter Darkness, until there was existence.

At what point did Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebel against God, and find themselves cast out, now Satan and his demons? And to whom was his falling such a spectacle referred to in the OT prophets?

Never. Christian retconning.
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#122ndSamuraiPosted 8/13/2011 7:50:12 PM
It was void and without form.

From Genesis 1:2

Does that answer your question, TC? It's not that hard. I don't understand how you got all those long answers.
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#13anavriNPosted 8/13/2011 7:52:43 PM
I've heard that before. How do you explain God's response then that he was cast from Heaven to the earth?

God didn't cast him out. Lucifer is only mentioned in Isaiah, and many scholars think it speaks metaphorically of the downfall of a human king.
Note that there is no further place in the Bible where the name Lucifer is mentioned again, even though "Satan" is mentioned about 52 times in NT.
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#14TheRealJiraiyaPosted 8/13/2011 8:30:45 PM
I feel like most of your questions are weird because they ask Jews stuff about stuff in the New Testament like Satan being cast down and 2 Peter and so on. I find that peculiar because of course the answer from the Jewish perspective is going to be "thats not my scripture".

Just making a remark. Now Im going to read MIs post because its probably interesting.
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#15Dathrowed1Posted 8/13/2011 9:25:43 PM
CIA911 posted...
I was only responding to his error.

You didn't respond to his error.


I did, he was in error about Lucifer.
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#16mercuryinkPosted 8/13/2011 9:34:01 PM
Just making a remark. Now Im going to read MIs post because its probably interesting.

Well?
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Some people are proof that G-d exists; evolution would have prevented them.
New Jersey Devils -- Stanley Cup Champions -- 1995-2000-2003
#17TheRealJiraiyaPosted 8/13/2011 9:41:03 PM(edited)
I did find it interesting :) But the message I took away from it was more that I really want to read your book :O if it does not get published you should send it to me IMO :D it sounds awesome.

edit: and obviously if it is published Ill get it.

I liked what you had to say about darkness, but I dont really have a response to it. I enjoyed reading it.
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"An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup." -H.L. Mencken
#18WaruigiPosted 8/14/2011 4:35:12 AM
There was a sea dragon and Yahweh fought the sea dragon and wrestled control of the sea away from it.

This is actually a long lost myth from Judaism prior to captivity in Babylon. During the Babylonian period, the writings and ideas of the Priestly writers including the first chapter of Genesis greatly changed the myths about Yahweh and how he came to rule Israel.
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#19CIA911Posted 8/14/2011 3:18:35 PM
All you can go by is the Bible TC. And while we do know that God obviously created things before he created our earth, we don't exactly know when these things happened, because we can't even measure time like that. God created the angels before he created the earth, but what you're looking for...another earth where they lived with dinosaurs...I just don't think that happened. Dinosaurs lived...with the rest of God's creation that he recorded in the Bible. I don't even know why angels would need an earth to live on.
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