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If Jesus is God, why would Jesus speak with and pray to God?

#21Chaos ScadePosted 8/27/2011 7:35:09 AM
OrangeWizard posted...
Verse 22 and onward

"Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. "

"...When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains"

Jesus is clearly "brought forth", and was not always in existence like God is.


Proverbs 8:22 onwards isn't something we've missed; it's one of the primary points of the entire argument. The article I posted addresses this.

Acquired Wisdom?

Bruce Vawter, in "Proverbs 8:22: Wisdom and Creation," Journal of Biblical Literature 99/2 (1980): 205-216, argues that Proverbs 8 depicts Wisdom as a separate deity that Yahweh "acquired." I follow Hurtado in replying that "this language of personification [used in Judaism as a whole] does not necessarily reflect a view of these divine attributes as independent entities alongside God." Such personifications "must be understood within the context of the ancient Jewish concern for the uniqueness of God, the most controlling religious idea of ancient Judaism."

Thus he regards claims like that of Vawter's, that Wisdom here is depicted as an "independent deity," as something that is "simply unwarranted and imports into such passages connotations never intended by the writers." Larry W. Hurtado, One God, One Lord: Early Christian Devotion and Ancient Jewish Monotheism, 46-7.


Another article is then linked to (http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jwsandjesus.html), which states:

More recently I have been referred to a site by a JW named "Heinz" who is conversant in the Wisdom literature -- but regards it as "damaging to Trinitarians" because it shows that "Wisdom was created!" Sirach 24:9 is quoted as, "He created me from the beginning, before the world, and I shall never cease." But 42:18-21 is not quoted, and that is what makes it clear that while Wisdom (and therefore Jesus) is indeed a "creation" (as Philo says, an effulgence, as light emits from a light bulb) of God, Wisdom is an eternal creation of God and can therefore be spoken of as "created before all things" without any implication that there was a point or time when it did not exist.

The most space, however, is devoted to Prov. 8:22 and the verb qanah. In early editions of this essay we offered an extensive analysis of qanah showing that the translation "created" is unlikely -- so much so that Vawter declared that Wisdom was a separate being that God "acquired". "Heinz" often takes the tack of quoting English versions to prove an argument, and compiles around 30 translation cites that render qanah as "created" in Prov. 8:22. None of this is of any effect, for a "created" interpretation of qanah is based on false suppositions. Note how qanah is used in other passages where the context admits no such meaning:

Gen. 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Gen. 25:10 The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.(cf. 33:19, 47:20, 50:13, where others qanah land, obviously not "creating" it)

Lev. 25:15 According to the number of years after the jubilee thou shalt buy of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee:

Kings 16:24 And he bought the hill Samaria of Shemer for two talents of silver, and built on the hill, and called the name of the city which he built, after the name of Shemer, owner of the hill, Samaria.

All of these should provide substantial object lessons that merely quoting English versions is a hazardous exercise.

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#22Chaos ScadePosted 8/27/2011 7:36:18 AM
Now that said, what of qanah? It is not "created"; the word for that is bara in the creation account. As noted, Vawter sees Wisdom as an "outside acquisition" of an independent being, a view neither Trinitarians nor JWs can accept. No one sees God getting Wisdom or Jesus on cash or credit. But there are cites that show that qanah is concerned with the "possession" aspect of the interchange process, rather than the "transaction" aspect:

Gen. 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Prov. 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Prov. 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.

Clearly "wisdom" is not something we create or acquire from outside; we cultivate our own attributes from within. Yet we also see it, as in Gen. 4:1 and Prov. 8, used of the imagery of giving birth. The nature of Wisdom to God is of an attribute that is possessed, used, and cultivated (in line with God using Wisdom as a tool to create, in Proverbs 8).

By that token, the land that is qanahed is land which is taken possession of for use. [The word for "bought" in terms of a transaction is miqnah: Lev. 25:15-16, According to the number of years after the jubilee thou shalt buy (qanah) of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee: According to the multitude of years thou shalt increase the price (miqnah) thereof, and according to the fewness of years thou shalt diminish the price of it...Jer. 32:14-15, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Take these evidences, this evidence of the purchase (miqnah), both which is sealed, and this evidence which is open; and put them in an earthen vessel, that they may continue many days. For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Houses and fields and vineyards shall be possessed (qanah) again in this land.]

Add to this the understanding of the ancients of the interlinking of owner and property, and the conclusion comes that qanah carries the meaning of a possession that is an extension of the owner. In this light Prov. 8 says nothing in terms of the means and method where Wisdom was qanahed and cannot be used by JWs to argue that Christ is a being created as humans were rather than eternal.


On top of this, Trinitarians have no problem with the notion of Christ being "brought forth" by the Father. The difference between Christ and creation, however, is that Christ is seen to be eternally begotten and of the same divine essence as the Father.
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#23OrangeWizardPosted 8/27/2011 7:55:39 AM
I read your first little article, which said "This guy who wrote a book disagrees with that."



From: Chaos Scade | #021
Another article is then linked to (http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jwsandjesus.html), which states:


lolnope.

But I read it anyway.

And I was about to quote this very verse on the subject of the verb in question, but they did it first.
Gen. 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

It's too bad that my bible says:

Producer of heaven and earth; instead.

If what the article claims about the same verb being used at Proverbs 4:5 is true, then verb can mean both "to acquire" and "to produce".
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#24Vegeta828Posted 8/28/2011 8:27:01 PM
When Jesus was present on the earth, from his birth to the cross, he was human. He needed comfort and strength like we need it everyday. That's why he prayed.
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I cried out, I am slipping! But your unfailing love, O Lord, supported me. When doubts filled my mind, your comfort gave me renewed hope and cheer. - Psalm 94
#25Chaos ScadePosted 8/28/2011 8:38:55 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
If what the article claims about the same verb being used at Proverbs 4:5 is true, then verb can mean both "to acquire" and "to produce".

You're assuming, however, that God cannot "produce" in eternity. The Word/Wisdom of God, in our understanding, is an eternally generated attribute of the Father understood to be distinct from the creation produced ex nihilo in the bara sense of the word.

Vegeta828 posted...
When Jesus was present on the earth, from his birth to the cross, he was human. He needed comfort and strength like we need it everyday. That's why he prayed.

Do you think that Christ is no longer human? Or that His humanity was separate from His divinity subsequent to His Incarnation?
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#26Vegeta828Posted 8/30/2011 10:23:03 PM
Do you think that Christ is no longer human? Or that His humanity was separate from His divinity subsequent to His Incarnation?

I think that at the moment when Jesus fully ascended to heaven, He did not have any reason to be human any longer. His work was already finished (referring to the cross). Though I wouldn't be surprised if at this moment, he still shows His humanly body at this moment to remind those that are coming into heaven or already there, what he's done. Not that that would be necessary.

As far as His humanity on this planet is concerned, I believe that He was fully God, yet subjected Himself to humanity, even after his resurrection. Remember, He let Thomas and the other disciples feel His scars.
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I cried out, I am slipping! But your unfailing love, O Lord, supported me. When doubts filled my mind, your comfort gave me renewed hope and cheer. - Psalm 94
#27Chaos ScadePosted 9/1/2011 7:24:27 AM
I think that at the moment when Jesus fully ascended to heaven, He did not have any reason to be human any longer. His work was already finished (referring to the cross). Though I wouldn't be surprised if at this moment, he still shows His humanly body at this moment to remind those that are coming into heaven or already there, what he's done. Not that that would be necessary.

Wow. I forgot how screwed up most people's incarnational theology is.
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