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Christians, what if I told you that...

#41CIA911Posted 8/28/2011 9:07:42 PM(edited)
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of being judged then? If everyone who got up to that point is "saved" then whats the reason for the judgment at all?

I'm getting the feeling you think that on the last day everyone is standing in line like at the DMV waiting for their turn. We see a verse like this in Revelation 20:12.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Now because everyone thinks that Revelation is ONLY taking place on the last day, it's only natural to assume that. To assume that everyone who is being judged are just the unsaved on that last day waiting their turn to be found guilty and cast to hell. The fact is is that we have to examine verses like this very carefully, and especially the word "stand." When we examine this word, we find that the verb "stand" here is used in an ongoing tense. This verb is used in an identical tense as used in Revelation 11:4. Where we read about the Two witnesses that are also called the two olive trees or two candlesticks which represent all True Believers:

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The grammatical structure of the verb "standing" here is identical to the one in Revelation 20:12. When we look at it in this verse, it is not talking about the two witnesses standing there momentarily getting their orders from God to go and send the Gospel, it means they are ever in the presence all through the church age who are in the presence of God. So when we see the dead standing waiting to be judged, it means that all through the history of the world those people who are spiritually dead are standing there in the presence of God as the judge. It isn't referring to a judgement process that is happening on the last day, or at that "point" as you put it, it's talking about standing before God as the judge from the time of Adam and Eve. 3 of the verbs in Revelation 20 are also in a tense that means continued past action. An action that began in the past and continues until it's all completed. These verbs are "opened", because the Books were opened long before the foundation of the world since those who were to be saved were elected of God. And also "judged", which means the judgement began in the past, and it continues to develop until it will be completed on the last day when everything is destroyed.
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Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
#42bratt100Posted 8/28/2011 9:00:58 PM
ArcticMtnWolf posted...
Very applicable to this life. And many people (yes, sometimes myself included) have wanted that kind of life here and now. But you are right: as it is now, that would not be a good thing. In heaven, however, everything will be different. Pain and suffering will no longer be necessary. We will be capable of being given what is truly good, and not being turned into spoiled brats ;). The only reason there is pain is because there is sin. Get rid of sin, and one can be truly free.

While I respect your beliefs and your adherence to them, I would have to say that pain would still be necessary and I don't think pain is the result of sin. I didn't sin when I stubbed my toe and I didn't sin when I think of a passed loved one.

I understand what when you say the rules are different in heaven then they are here I just couldn't see myself enjoying something that has no flip side, no risk = no rush. sorry if that doesn't make any sense to you.
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Thanks He-man
#43CIA911Posted 8/28/2011 9:06:19 PM
Side-effects.

There are side-effects that make things impossible.

Like God taking away our free will, and making us all robots.

That would be impossible, because that would be immoral.

The side-effects for us forgetting everything would be to make us nothing more than fully-grown babies.
Why would we ever need a reward if we aren't cognizant of ever getting it? What good is what Jesus went through if we'd never remember it? What good is anything anyone ever went through? Why doesn't got just create some more angels, if he wants fully-grown mentally-infantile beings?

These side-effects, as well as countless scriptures, also invalidate your whole "Predestination lottery" thing.


*examines this for any scripture or mention of scripture and instead just sees you trying to question God because you don't understand.

Nope, same as last time. That was productive. If you have anything from the Bible, please come back.
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Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
#44JuliaGillard(Topic Creator)Posted 8/29/2011 3:07:08 AM(edited)
OrangeWizard posted...
You can do everything you can imagine once you're immortal.

Those who think this is a bad thing, must not be imagining very much.

Go watch the movie Zardoz and tell me how being immortal is not SUCH A BORE.

Wu_Zonghai posted...
I'm pretty sure TC is kidding
No I'm not.

ArcticMtnWolf posted...
Who wants to live forever?

Depends on what that life is like. In His graciousness, God does bring this present life to an end. Heaven is considered a place without pain, without sadness, without fear, without evil; a place more beautiful and wonderful than we could imagine. The God who made all the beauty, wonder, and imagination in this world, the trees, the mountains, physics, motion, the animals, the stars, etc. He could certainly make a place that has that much and more, without all the bad. To be loved, perfectly, completely, unconditionally, to be at peace, to be filled with immeasurable joy, to be truly free, to be physically, mentally, and spiritually in our best and greatest possible condition, to be surrounded by tons of friends we didn't even know we had, sharing together in perfect harmony at one gigantic party.... If this is where we are headed, who wouldn't want to live forever?

Well then, God should hook me up with a good holographic simulator because this 'streets paved with gold' stuff is not interesting to me AT ALL. Besides, I thought God was against vanity. Would God not be the most vain thing to have to pave his streets with gold in order for us to be happy?

My request is for God to extinguish my soul. And if he will not do that (cannot?) then for me to see all black for eternity. I'm not interesting in mingling with his grand cocktail party. I have no interest in meeting Him. Sorry if that offends Him. I'm sure he knows I would have said that anyway. Now all of you know my thoughts as well. TOUGH, God.
#45ArcticMtnWolfPosted 8/30/2011 5:55:11 PM
While I respect your beliefs and your adherence to them, I would have to say that pain would still be necessary and I don't think pain is the result of sin. I didn't sin when I stubbed my toe and I didn't sin when I think of a passed loved one.

I understand what when you say the rules are different in heaven then they are here I just couldn't see myself enjoying something that has no flip side, no risk = no rush. sorry if that doesn't make any sense to you.



It does make sense. But supposedly, we will have new bodies that are immortal, so I'm guessing we probably won't need or desire "a rush." Or if we do, I might suggest being in the presence of God is all the more rush we need!

As to sin and pain, I'm not saying that a specific pain is the result of a specific sin. Why did you stub your toe in the first place? Clumsiness? Carelessness? Blindness? Haste? Whatever the reason, it will no longer be present. Why did a loved one die? Sin. The wages of sin is death. In heaven, there will be no more sin, no more death.

When you are a child, you grow and develop in certain ways that you no longer do once you become an adult. Not that you stop learning and developing entirely, but at some point, some things stop growing. I'd imagine it's similar in heaven. Right now we are in the growing and changing stage. Like a child that doesn't know any better, we run with scissors or fail to look both ways before crossing the street. Once we are in heaven, once we have grown up fully, we will know better.

I believe there is good reason why God doesn't give too many details on what heaven will be like. People think it will be a certain way and think they don't want that. Truth is, many times, we don't even really know what is best for us. We just know ... well, that this world sucks, and we feel like it can't go on this way forever. I guess that's where faith comes in. We trust that, whatever heaven is like, God has something good in store. Something far better than what any of us could ask or imagine.
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RPG Cliches #13. The Higher The Hair, The Closer To God (Cloud Rule)
The more outrageous his hairstyle, the more important a male character is to the story.
#46OrangeWizardPosted 8/30/2011 6:41:14 PM

From: JuliaGillard | #041
Go watch the movie Zardoz and tell me how being immortal is not SUCH A BORE.


Go watch Baccano and tell me how being immortal isn't a life-long party
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"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#47RetrotasticPosted 9/2/2011 1:09:03 PM(edited)
Nothing will be "going black" if you're talking about literal non-existence. Blackness is a property of something that exists and seeing blackness implies you exist.

JuliaGillard posted...
I don't like the Christian perspective on death and judgment.
At all.
But I also think the idea of immortality beyond this world is just..it's f****** sick. Who wants to live forever?
:(


It sounds like you're up for a bit of Freddie Mercury.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC4ZOxpu2rs&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=PL42FCE8D84892946E
#48fudrickPosted 9/2/2011 3:11:08 PM
ArcticMtnWolf posted...
Why did a loved one die? Sin. The wages of sin is death.

So a baby who dies the day he was born died because he sinned?
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#49TheWitheredRosePosted 9/2/2011 4:40:25 PM
I agree with the TC's request when he dies.

Heaven is too perfect, as far as I've been told about it. What if it just gets boring? I need to be able to experience imperfections, which is why I would wish for reincarnation even if that means losing the memory of my past life.
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