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Christians: Paradoxes in the Bible...do they make sense on -any- level?

#61OrangeWizardPosted 9/4/2011 5:19:56 PM

From: CIA911 | #057
I never said God deceived Moses.




Yes you did. You said that right when you said that God was never going to change his mind.

Therefore, he was lying to Moses by claiming he was going to do something he was never going to do.

You ARE calling him a liar. You ARE going against Numbers 23:19. These events are happening. This is a thing that is true.

Do you even read this book you say you follow ?


Do YOU?
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"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#62CIA911Posted 9/4/2011 6:02:08 PM(edited)
Yes you did. You said that right when you said that God was never going to change his mind.

The Bible says God doesn't change his mind. Not me. How could I possibly say God changes his mind when he says he doesn't ? God can't lie.

Therefore, he was lying to Moses by claiming he was going to do something he was never going to do.

Not at all. If he never had that talk with Moses, he would have done it, because that would mean that God had a different plan, where he intended on doing it.

You ARE calling him a liar. You ARE going against Numbers 23:19. These events are happening. This is a thing that is true.

You're still not understanding are you ? It's important to look at the key phrase "God is not a man" in that verse. Right there God is illustrating the difference between our way of doing things, and his way. I can explain it using Jeremiah 18 as an example, if you would like.

Do YOU?

...yes. How else would I know you have no idea what you're talking about ?

Isaiah 14:24

The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.

Isaiah 46:10-11

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.


Isaiah 37:26

"Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone.

Isaiah 25:1

O LORD, you are my God; I will exalt you and praise your name, for in perfect faithfulness you have done marvelous things, things planned long ago.

Isaiah 48:3

I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known; then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.

Yes...God clearly has no plan. He is obviously making it up as he goes along.

Seriously man Isaiah is a good book. Check it out sometime. There's also numerous other verses where God talks about his plan but I think that's good enough. And If you're going to give me some kind of "Oh that doesn't mean God has a plan it isn't to be taken literal" deal, don't. God CANNOT be more clear here.

I don't know about your God, but the God of the Bible says he has a plan...so...he has a plan.

Now would you kindly stop wasting my time.

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Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
#63OrangeWizardPosted 9/4/2011 6:10:46 PM

From: CIA911 | #060
The Bible says God doesn't change his mind.


And you are contradicting the bible.
This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. The bible says one thing. You say another thing. You are in error.

Why are we still talking about this?

Not at all. If he never had that talk with Moses, he would have done it


But he did talk with Moses. Therefore, he changed his mind, according to you.

If God doesn't change his mind, then the result would have been the same throughout all scenarios.
If God never changes his mind then talking to Moses, Uncle Tom, or Pinkie Pie would have the same effect: nothing.

According to you, he did change his mind after talking with Moses. You just said that.

See? The bible says that God doesn't change his mind. You are saying that God did change his mind. You are in error.

It's important to look at the key phrase "God is not a man" in that verse. Right there God is illustrating the difference between our way of doing things, and his way.


This is irrelevant, because you already plainly called God a liar.

Isaiah 14:24

The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.


How does this point to some universal, predestined , all-encompassing plan, and not, say, one that was just made up for one particular event?

Isaiah 46:10-11

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.




Same question.

Isaiah 37:26

"Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone.


Same question

Isaiah 25:1

O LORD, you are my God; I will exalt you and praise your name, for in perfect faithfulness you have done marvelous things, things planned long ago.


Same question.

Isaiah 48:3

I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known; then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.




Same question.


You aren't kidding about wasting time. You've proven nothing with that entire post.
---
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#64fudrickPosted 9/4/2011 6:33:52 PM
CIA I'd appreciate it if you addressed my last question. You probably missed it, or forgot to get around to it, so I'm just reminding you.
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Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious
#65CIA911Posted 9/4/2011 6:38:50 PM
And you are contradicting the bible.
This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. The bible says one thing. You say another thing. You are in error.


The Bible says God doesn't change his mind...and I'm contradicting the Bible by saying...that God doesn't change his mind ? Wow. I'm not even sure what to say to that.

But he did talk with Moses. Therefore, he changed his mind, according to you.

If God doesn't change his mind, then the result would have been the same throughout all scenarios.
If God never changes his mind then talking to Moses, Uncle Tom, or Pinkie Pie would have the same effect: nothing.

According to you, he did change his mind after talking with Moses. You just said that.


I'll say this as plain as I can. Whatever God does, is what he planned to do.

See? The bible says that God doesn't change his mind. You are saying that God did change his mind. You are in error.

LOL @ this attempt to switch this around on me and make it seem like I AM the one who said he changed his mind. I have YET to say that God changes his mind. In fact, this is out of YOUR own mouth in response to me:

Yes you did. You said that right when you said that God was never going to change his mind.

So which one is it ? Please show me ANYWHERE where I said God changed his mind. What I said was, IF he originally intended on destroying them, then he would not have had that talk with Moses to begin with. I maintained from the beginning that he does not. change his mind. And the Bible says he does not. Now you're just getting silly with this.

Let me ask you...just so I can understand...you are saying that God was going to destroy them...and then Moses talked him out of it ? IF you are, it's YOU who are saying that God changed his mind, which goes against the Bible. If not...then you're agreeing with me. It's one of those two things.

How does this point to some universal, predestined , all-encompassing plan, and not, say, one that was just made up for one particular event?

Ehh...about what I expected.
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Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
#66OrangeWizardPosted 9/4/2011 6:52:13 PM

From: CIA911 | #062
I'll say this as plain as I can. Whatever God does, is what he planned to do.


Oh, so he never planned to kill the destroy them at that time?

So then God lied to Moses when he told him that he would, according to you.

You can say it as plainly as you want, you're still contradicting the bible.

Either he never changes his mind, and lies, or he changes his mind, and does not lie.

These are your only two choices.

I AM the one who said he changed his mind.


You WERE.

Please show me ANYWHERE where I said God changed his mind.


Okay:

From: CIA911 | #060
If he never had that talk with Moses, he would have done it




There.

IF you are, it's YOU who are saying that God changed his mind, which goes against the Bible.


Where, exactly, does it say that God cannot change his mind?

Ehh...about what I expected.




Likewise.

I never expected you to actually show me your basis for your claims. I knew you don't have any.
---
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
#67CIA911Posted 9/4/2011 7:46:41 PM(edited)
Oh, so he never planned to kill the destroy them at that time?

So then God lied to Moses when he told him that he would, according to you.

You can say it as plainly as you want, you're still contradicting the bible.

Either he never changes his mind, and lies, or he changes his mind, and does not lie.

These are your only two choices.


3rd choice. He neither lies, nor changes his mind. As stated in the Numbers verse. And here is the rest to answer your later question:

Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

From: CIA911 | #060
If he never had that talk with Moses, he would have done it

There.


You realize of course that by this statement I didn't meant that Moses was the one who changed God's mind, but that God, by not talking with Moses and destroying them, would be doing what he originally planned on doing, which was to destroy them, right ? God shows us by this talk that it is possible for him to be approached, and for people to ask him to have mercy, and if it's his will, he will do it. But if he wasn't going to have mercy in the 1st place...then you wouldn't get it.

Likewise.

I never expected you to actually show me your basis for your claims. I knew you don't have any.


My basis is...the very plainly stated verses I showed you. Also I'm not really sure how it's possible for God to only plan certain things but not others. If he has no idea what else is going to happen...how can it be that God knows that what he does plan will come to pass ? When you read the verses from Isaiah 46...does it HONESTLY look to you that God is only talking about...one or two specific events ? I mean there are so many other verses outside of those that do not mention any specific event, but just talk about God's overall plan. We can look at Psalm 33:11

But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Apparently this verse is just one big fat lie. His purpose and his plans are changed by men all the time.

Or Proverbs 19:21

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Another lie. If it was his plan to destroy them...is certainly didn't prevail.

Or Psalm 40:5

Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare.

I mean...do you think God is just talking about billions of different plans for specific events here...but not all part of the same grand plan ? The plans for "us" ? Who is us here ? Nobody ? 5 or 6 people ? What exactly happens outside of the will of God ? Please tell me...I'm curious.

Also fudrick, all I've seen if the walls of text me and OW have posted but I will go back and look for your post in a bit. Breaking Bad is on.

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Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
#68fudrickPosted 9/4/2011 8:00:03 PM
I asked what you consider the whole "sacrifice your son... nah, never mind" thing if not deceit.
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Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious
#69OrangeWizardPosted 9/4/2011 9:34:09 PM

From: CIA911 | #064
3rd choice. He neither lies, nor changes his mind. As stated in the Numbers verse




"He clearly lied here, but the bible says he can't lie, so he didn't lie".

Coming from someone who thinks that God can make a square circle, this sort of acceptance logical paradox is expected.


but that God, by not talking with Moses and destroying them, would be doing what he originally planned on doing


See? You did it again
"Originally"

If he "Originally" planned on doing something, and DID NOT DO IT

THEN HE CHANGED HIS MIND.

My basis is...the very plainly stated verses I showed you.


And it is unclear whether or not it means what you think it means. I asked you for proof that it means what you think it means. "It just is" isn't proof. That's just like saying "I'm right, so nyeh"

Also I'm not really sure how it's possible for God to only plan certain things but not others.


Would you plan a road trip?
Would you plan breakfast tomorrow?

I would plan a road trip, but not breakfast tomorrow. I'd just go to the kitchen and look for what I feel like eating.

This is an example of how someone can plan one thing and not another.

If he has no idea what else is going to happen...how can it be that God knows that what he does plan will come to pass ?


We both know that God is capable of knowing the future. He does it cases where he wants to know the future, but does it in the way that he does not predestine us. For example, he does not predestine the destines of specific people.

Psalm 33:11 says "Counsel" in my bible.
It also says Jehovah, which is God's name, not LORD, so you can see yours has been tampered with.

Proverbs 19:21
This is just contrasting the futile plans of men with the wisdom of God.

Also, Plan =/= Purpose.

Psalm 40:5 says
"Many things you yourself have done, O Jehovah my God, even your wonderful works and your thoughts toward us; There is none to be compared to you. Were I inclined to tell and speak [of them], They have become more numerous than I can recount."

lol "LORD my God" sounds silly.

So maybe from your skewed bible, everything makes sense, but not from an accurate bible.
---
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops