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If God created free will, and God is omniscient...

#1treewojimaPosted 11/5/2011 11:31:48 AM
... then God created free will knowing that gay sex would result. Hence, God created gay sex.
#2TheRealJiraiyaPosted 11/5/2011 11:36:23 AM
treewojima posted...
... then God created free will knowing that gay sex would result. Hence, God created gay sex.

I disagree that your conclusion follows from your premises.
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"An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup." -H.L. Mencken
#3NsM ComatosisPosted 11/5/2011 12:46:04 PM
The conclusion might sound too specific and random to you, but it doesn't change the fact that an omniscient being who created us all would necessarily have engineered the universe to behave exactly as it did, given that he would have known all along what would happen, even if we account for free will as part of his creation.

But yeah, this debate has been beaten to death numerous times before. <_<
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Pun is top 10 of all time. You can tell he ate a lot of mc's. -- Moogle Hunter
#4TheRealJiraiyaPosted 11/5/2011 12:55:06 PM
NsM Comatosis posted...
The conclusion might sound too specific and random to you, but it doesn't change the fact that an omniscient being who created us all would necessarily have engineered the universe to behave exactly as it did, given that he would have known all along what would happen, even if we account for free will as part of his creation.

But yeah, this debate has been beaten to death numerous times before. <_<


I dont think "God allowed x to happen" = "God did x"
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"An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup." -H.L. Mencken
#5NsM ComatosisPosted 11/5/2011 1:20:35 PM
Well, God could have conceived a universe such that gay sex was impossible, but he didn't. In human terms it's true that simply allowing something to happen doesn't translate to "you did this," but if we're talking about the creator of the universe, anything that can happen happens because he made it possible, especially if we take into account his omniscience.
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Pun is top 10 of all time. You can tell he ate a lot of mc's. -- Moogle Hunter
#6TheRealJiraiyaPosted 11/5/2011 1:23:52 PM
NsM Comatosis posted...
Well, God could have conceived a universe such that gay sex was impossible, but he didn't. In human terms it's true that simply allowing something to happen doesn't translate to "you did this," but if we're talking about the creator of the universe, anything that can happen happens because he made it possible, especially if we take into account his omniscience.

So one could say "he believed free will was necessary to achieve his ultimate purpose, and so allowed certain evils to be created by the hands of his free beings so that, ultimately, things could go the way he planned". If free will was a necessity for things to work out the way He wanted them to, then short term evils born of those free wills are not necessarily justified simply because they werent stopped.

God would prefer we all use our free will for good, but allowing us the choice is something he desired more than goodness. If we take that approach, it nullifies the TCs argument.

By the way, this point isnt about homosexuality, but rather sin in a God made universe.
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"An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup." -H.L. Mencken
#7NsM ComatosisPosted 11/5/2011 1:54:57 PM(edited)
But he's still responsible for all that we can do with said free will. We're not gonna will ourselves to float in mid-air or live underwater without the aid of technology, no matter how hard we try. In fact, why did God place all these seemingly arbitrary limitations if he wanted us to use our free will to the best of our abilities? I'm quite certain that opening all these doors would have provided us with a greater capacity for good and evil, in which case our actions on earth would have been a better measure of our soul's worth and where our allegiance truly lies.

Sure, right now we can choose to build houses or bombs, but we would've been able to do more good (and harm) with our free will if he hadn't said "alright, you have intelligence and free will, but just don't try to engage a bear in hand-to-hand combat, because he will maul your ass big time." I mean, he could have at least given us a larger percentage of the earth's surface for us to live and survive in (since we're the only ones made in his image and all), instead of having to confine ourselves to patches of land here and there thanks to nature's uncanny ability to kill us anywhere else.
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Pun is top 10 of all time. You can tell he ate a lot of mc's. -- Moogle Hunter
#8Far421Posted 11/5/2011 3:16:04 PM(edited)
If god does exist, then he is responsible for all of the suffering (and joy) in the world. There's really no getting around it. For god to create people who he knows in advance will live misable lives is no different than for a mother to give birth to a child knowing it will have a disease that makes it suffer greatly.

The thought that such a being exists is truly repugnant, especially if the being also has things like omnipotence at his disposal.
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#9OrangeWizardPosted 11/5/2011 8:35:39 PM
And I don't believe that God's omniscience includes the future.

Inherent Omniscience: God knows everything that he desires to know.
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#10XigbarPosted 11/5/2011 8:45:35 PM
Inherent Omniscience: God knows everything that he desires to know.



That's an interesting idea, but does it have any relevance in a discussion about popular monotheism? By popular, I mean the kind that affects all our daily lives.
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