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How can God's love be unconditional if it requires the follower to repent and...

#101DoGCyNPosted 11/9/2012 7:47:58 AM
I'm a nontheist. I don't believe in God because I chose to reject Her. I don't believe in God because God (assuming She existed) created me in a manner that I can't ignore logic, reason, and evidence.

So basically, you hate God?
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2 Corinthians 12:7-10
#102Barenziah Boy Toy(Topic Creator)Posted 11/9/2012 7:49:54 AM
So now this discussion has gone from the actual topic question to "I can't rationally believe in God"
Because there's a connection. YOu can't claim that I have a choice. I can't 'choose' to ignore my nature to think rationally.
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You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}
#103Barenziah Boy Toy(Topic Creator)Posted 11/9/2012 7:51:12 AM
I'm a nontheist. I don't believe in God not because I chose to reject Her.
Sorry, clarifying the statement to make sense.
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You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}
#104SystemafunkPosted 11/9/2012 12:29:45 PM
No, because as I've said, I don't think the condition of salvation shows a loving action; in fact I think it shows the opposite, and I'm not sure how you can equate eternal damnation with love.

I actually don't believe in that, and since you staked the majority of your point on that, don't really care. But, thanks for playing!
#105SystemafunkPosted 11/9/2012 12:32:34 PM
Because there's a connection. YOu can't claim that I have a choice. I can't 'choose' to ignore my nature to think rationally.

Belief in God is not irrational. It just isn't empirical. And yes, it is your choice to believe that only empirical knowledge leads to truth. If that were not the case, then there wouldn't even be philosophical debate about it.
#106ThuggernautzPosted 11/9/2012 12:36:23 PM
Systemafunk posted...

I actually don't believe in that, and since you staked the majority of your point on that, don't really care. But, thanks for playing!


I'll just quickly repost my question, because I think you might have missed it:

If you don't believe in hell, do you believe that God withdrawing his presence simply because you choose not to worship him is a) eternal and b) a just action?

And lastly, can you provide Biblical justification for your position or is it a Retrotastic style pseudo-religion?
#107hunter_gohanPosted 11/9/2012 12:54:37 PM
DoGCyN posted...
First off, we're assuming God exists and that this is true. Otherwise this discussion is pointless.


You guys like to do that a lot. The problem is we can't do that; otherwise, this discussion is pointless. Barenziah Boy Toy laid it out very nicely. This isn't a case of someone offering me the cure for my cancer. This is a case of someone saying they'll give me a cure for my cancer except their outstretched hands are empty and this is the first I'm hearing about having cancer.

If he was all-loving and simply not powerful enough to take away the sin of people that didn't believe in him, then he would prove that he exists to the world. It's that simple.

Explain where you're going with this please.


I'm pointing out how god's justice systems lacks any kind of justice.
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Fundamentalism in a nut shell: Raphael: It's God's will. Castiel: How can you say that?! Raphael: Because it's what I want!
#108Barenziah Boy Toy(Topic Creator)Posted 11/9/2012 1:53:32 PM(edited)
Belief in God is not irrational. It just isn't empirical.
Belief in the Christian God as described in the Bible is indeed irrational, in addition to being unempirical. Belief in a some kind of God? At the very least, it is empirically irrational.

And yes, it is your choice to believe that only empirical knowledge leads to truth.
No, it's not. I am BY NATURE, a being that is guided by observation and evidence. I will never choose to do something that violates my senses.

If that were not the case, then there wouldn't even be philosophical debate about it.
The philosophical debate is over whether God is possible. I am perfectly open to that possibility.

But don't you dare ****ing tell me that I can choose to believe in God. I only believe in what I can observe or test.

This is not some choice. This is part of my very nature and being. I am not wired to believe in some hypothesis that is irrational or unobservably untested.

It is not in my nature to deny what my senses can tell me. It is certainly not a choice. It is a natural instinct and it is an insult to my intelligence and to my dignity and others when you claim otherwise.
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You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}
#109SystemafunkPosted 11/9/2012 1:49:17 PM
I'll just quickly repost my question, because I think you might have missed it:

If you don't believe in hell, do you believe that God withdrawing his presence simply because you choose not to worship him is a) eternal and b) a just action?


He doesn't withdraw his presence. When you die, you are only spirit, and you are either in the full presence of God, or not. Those who do not have a relationship with God cannot stand being in the presence of God. According to Orthodox doctrine, which I find intriguing, hell is simply being eternally in God's presence, but being unable to stand it. The alternative is death, since without God, your spirit will not survive. In effect, those who never seek out a relationship with God have ALREADY withdrawn their presence from God. Again, the relationship is a two way effect. Is this objectionable to you for some reason? Or are you going to go off on a "no such thing as free will" tangent at this point?


And lastly, can you provide Biblical justification for your position or is it a Retrotastic style pseudo-religion?


The Bible repeatedly refers to the wages of sin as death, in both the OT and the NT. You ought to be fully familiar with this. It also refers to the fire itself as eternal, far more often than the "punishment" as eternal (which from what I remember is twice at the most) Do your own research if you want more than that. You can also look up the Orthodox doctrine, but if you want to save yourself some time, you can just assume that it isn't a "Retro style" idea pulled out of thin air. You know, since the Orthodox are pretty well established and all. Of course, Annihilationism is also well established...
#110SystemafunkPosted 11/9/2012 1:50:58 PM
I'm pointing out how god's justice systems lacks any kind of justice.

God's system contains BOTH justice and mercy. And, it only works because God is omniscient. Why are you arguing about whether we should institute this EXACT system into our system of finite and non omniscience?