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How can God's love be unconditional if it requires the follower to repent and...

#51Barenziah Boy Toy(Topic Creator)Posted 11/5/2012 11:24:00 AM
That's because hell is part of judgment. That's what it means when it is said that people choose their own fate.
Why Hell? Why not just Limbo? If Hell is considered a punishment, then it was specifically created. Limbo would be considered the true vacuum, and nonbelievers and sinners should be sent to Limbo, assuming God's love is unconditional.

They rejected God's love, so what's left?
A God that loves unconditionally will always leave room for Hope for the individual that rejects God love.

And does God love them any less? Of course not.
Yes, God indeed loves that individual less. A Being that loves unconditionally is someone that will ALWAYS and perpetually care for the well-being of that individual, regardless of the circumstances.

He has delivered justice AND saved you- if you accept it, sincerely believe in Him and ask forgiveness for your sins.
Then why forsake the nonbelievers? Why not put them in a temporary holding cell until they correct their behavior? A God that loves unconditionally would not Eternally Damn an individual. Unconditional love requires God to always hold out hope for that individual. Eternal Damnation implies that God has given up on that individual.

But when someone goes to hell, they're separated from His love forever. For those who are saved, nothing will separate them from the love of God (Romans 8:38-29).
Unconditional love means exactly that. God has the power to do whatever It wants, including the ability to hold out hope for an individual, even if that individual has rejected God's love.

And out of curiosity, why do you think we have the death penalty if not for justice?
Society uses the death penalty mostly for: 1) deterrent, and 2) ease the pain of the victim's family/friends. True justice is never eye for an eye. Jesus taught us that.
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You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}
#52C_MatPosted 11/5/2012 11:39:12 AM
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
Then why forsake the nonbelievers? Why not put them in a temporary holding cell until they correct their behavior? A God that loves unconditionally would not Eternally Damn an individual. Unconditional love requires God to always hold out hope for that individual. Eternal Damnation implies that God has given up on that individual.

Unconditional love means exactly that. God has the power to do whatever It wants, including the ability to hold out hope for an individual, even if that individual has rejected God's love.

Society uses the death penalty mostly for: 1) deterrent, and 2) ease the pain of the victim's family/friends. True justice is never eye for an eye. Jesus taught us that.
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Well, we have the death penalty to give justice for the victim, that's just a fact. But that's a secondary issue anyway. As for the rest, I'm starting to think you're just wanting to argue and not actually listening to me.

Every human on this planet has God's unconditional, undeserved love right now. When you die and go to hell, you are no longer loved by God. Yes, eternal damnation means that God has indeed given up on you. You lose that unconditional love. It's unconditional at the beginning of your existence, but that doesn't mean it lasts forever. I think that's where you're getting tripped up.

An unconditional love where God loves people forever and ever- whether they accept Jesus as a substitute for their sins or not- is certainly not in the Bible anywhere, so I don't know where you're getting it from. Unconditional does not mean unending. It certainly will run out when your life runs out if you don't ask for forgiveness.
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#53DoGCyNPosted 11/5/2012 11:41:32 AM
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
That's because hell is part of judgment. That's what it means when it is said that people choose their own fate.
Why Hell? Why not just Limbo? If Hell is considered a punishment, then it was specifically created. Limbo would be considered the true vacuum, and nonbelievers and sinners should be sent to Limbo, assuming God's love is unconditional.

They rejected God's love, so what's left?
A God that loves unconditionally will always leave room for Hope for the individual that rejects God love.

And does God love them any less? Of course not.
Yes, God indeed loves that individual less. A Being that loves unconditionally is someone that will ALWAYS and perpetually care for the well-being of that individual, regardless of the circumstances.


So your definition is...quote: " [Unconditional Love] will always leave room for Hope for the individual that rejects [it]."

...but it also means: [Unconditional Love shows that someone] will ALWAYS perpetually care for the well-being of [another] individual, regardless of the circumstances.

First one is laughable. If someone is on trial to be sent to prison for murder and pedophilia, but has the hope to "repent" before they go on trial...should we put them on trial, or in the "good nature of our hearts," let them go? Regardless of the answer, assuming this person had family and friends, it doesn't change how much they may have loved this person. They wouldn't have agreed with the actions of the individual obviously, but like a Mother/Father loving his/her child, the unconditional love would be unchanged.

The second one is close...but still Wrong. The Unconditional Love of God means He loves you regardless of what you do/do not do. So all 3 of these points are incorrect.
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2 Corinthians 12:7-10
#54hunter_gohanPosted 11/5/2012 2:10:00 PM
DoGCyN posted...
You missed the part where God is all loving and the Holy Judge. You seem to mutually exclude these two things from Him. God would not be Holy if He didn't give the punishment due for wrongdoing..so this is a requirement...however at the same time, He offers us the grace in order to "steer-clear" from this punishment (which is Jesus).

This grace...is like you getting pulled over for speeding, the cop NOT giving you a ticket, and then giving you $100 instead...which is purrrty funny lol.


He wouldn't be holy if he didn't give the punishment due(let's ignore for a second that infinite punishment is not due or equal or fit any finite crime), and he regularly does not give the punishment that is due; therefore, he is not holy according to your own post.

C_Mat posted...
Every human on this planet has God's unconditional, undeserved love right now. When you die and go to hell, you are no longer loved by God. Yes, eternal damnation means that God has indeed given up on you. You lose that unconditional love. It's unconditional at the beginning of your existence, but that doesn't mean it lasts forever. I think that's where you're getting tripped up.


I think the problem here is that you just don't know what the hell unconditional means. If there is a condition in which X would be revoked, then it is not unconditional.

Unconditional:
"1 : not conditional or limited"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unconditional

You have just outlined how God's love is limited and conditional.
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Fundamentalism in a nut shell: Raphael: It's God's will. Castiel: How can you say that?! Raphael: Because it's what I want!
#55Barenziah Boy Toy(Topic Creator)Posted 11/5/2012 2:24:09 PM
Well, we have the death penalty to give justice for the victim, that's just a fact. But that's a secondary issue anyway. As for the rest, I'm starting to think you're just wanting to argue and not actually listening to me.

Every human on this planet has God's unconditional, undeserved love right now. When you die and go to hell, you are no longer loved by God. Yes, eternal damnation means that God has indeed given up on you. You lose that unconditional love. It's unconditional at the beginning of your existence, but that doesn't mean it lasts forever. I think that's where you're getting tripped up.

An unconditional love where God loves people forever and ever- whether they accept Jesus as a substitute for their sins or not- is certainly not in the Bible anywhere, so I don't know where you're getting it from. Unconditional does not mean unending. It certainly will run out when your life runs out if you don't ask for forgiveness.


So we've reached an impasse. To me, unconditional means, forever and ever, no matter the circumstances. For an all-loving, all-living Being, unconditional requires unending, simply because God is unending.

It's OK, you're free to disagree with my definition for 'unconditional'. I respect that.


If someone is on trial to be sent to prison for murder and pedophilia, but has the hope to "repent" before they go on trial...should we put them on trial, or in the "good nature of our hearts," let them go?
No, because society does not have the capacity to offer unconditional love to all of its citizens. We don't have the power or enough love in our hearts to do it.

Regardless of the answer, assuming this person had family and friends, it doesn't change how much they may have loved this person. They wouldn't have agreed with the actions of the individual obviously, but like a Mother/Father loving his/her child, the unconditional love would be unchanged.
If the perpetrator's family supports the death penalty for the perpetrator, then that is not unconditional love. If the perpetrator's family is in favor of life imprisonment and rehabilitation, then unconditional love is still intact, because they are still holding out
hope that they can save him/her.
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You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}
#56DoGCyNPosted 11/5/2012 2:53:27 PM(edited)
hunter_gohan posted...
DoGCyN posted...
You missed the part where God is all loving and the Holy Judge. You seem to mutually exclude these two things from Him. God would not be Holy if He didn't give the punishment due for wrongdoing..so this is a requirement...however at the same time, He offers us the grace in order to "steer-clear" from this punishment (which is Jesus).

This grace...is like you getting pulled over for speeding, the cop NOT giving you a ticket, and then giving you $100 instead...which is purrrty funny lol.


He wouldn't be holy if he didn't give the punishment due


You missed the part about Jesus. Jesus took the punishment.
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2 Corinthians 12:7-10
#57Barenziah Boy Toy(Topic Creator)Posted 11/5/2012 3:06:03 PM
You missed the part about Jesus. Jesus took the punishment.
There are a bunch of people in Hell right now that are also taking the punishment, God has forsaken them as well.
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You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}
#58flacodiabloPosted 11/5/2012 3:17:42 PM
God wrote the Bible?
#59DoGCyNPosted 11/5/2012 4:23:48 PM(edited)
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
You missed the part about Jesus. Jesus took the punishment.
There are a bunch of people in Hell right now that are also taking the punishment, God has forsaken them as well.
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What part is not understood? Here's a buncha questions for you to answer:

So these people are in hell getting their just deserved punishment. You claim God is not all-loving because of this?
Are you saying God can't judge people?
Do you think it's maddening for guilty murderers to go free?
Have you read the book of Jonah?
What are your thoughts on the show The Walking Dead?
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2 Corinthians 12:7-10
#60C_MatPosted 11/5/2012 5:37:52 PM
hunter_gohan posted...
I think the problem here is that you just don't know what the hell unconditional means. If there is a condition in which X would be revoked, then it is not unconditional.

Unconditional:
"1 : not conditional or limited"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unconditional

You have just outlined how God's love is limited and conditional.


Good point. I realize now that I should have just answered "God's love is not unconditional," but I just wanted to make sure TC got the whole story.
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