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How can God's love be unconditional if it requires the follower to repent and...

#71BetaSquadronPosted 11/6/2012 9:19:13 PM
C_Mat posted...
God exists by necessity of His own nature.

That's something that you made up.
#72C_MatPosted 11/6/2012 9:38:36 PM(edited)
BetaSquadron posted...
C_Mat posted...
God exists by necessity of His own nature.

That's something that you made up.


If you think that, you must not have a concept of God/a god.

EDIT: And I certainly didn't make that up, but even if I did, you still didn't explain how a God that exists by necessity of His own nature makes less sense than a universe that necessarily exists.
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http://youtu.be/gmnSnNC8UJk
#73FingerpuppetPosted 11/7/2012 12:27:42 AM
C_Mat posted...
BetaSquadron posted...
C_Mat posted...
God exists by necessity of His own nature.

That's something that you made up.


If you think that, you must not have a concept of God/a god.

EDIT: And I certainly didn't make that up, but even if I did, you still didn't explain how a God that exists by necessity of His own nature makes less sense than a universe that necessarily exists.


It is in a unicorn's nature to exist. Therefore, unicorns exist.
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http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/214-paranormal-conspiracy/63352960#16
The greatest shut down ever.
#74mrplainswalkerPosted 11/7/2012 6:54:31 AM
If you think that, you must not have a concept of God/a god.

You can conceptualize something that doesn't actually exist, like Frodo Baggins for example. I can imagine the entity you speak of...that doesn't mean anything.

EDIT: And I certainly didn't make that up, but even if I did, you still didn't explain how a God that exists by necessity of His own nature makes less sense than a universe that necessarily exists.

Well, we know the universe exists because we're in it.
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Failure to at least give this show a chance gives anyone you see the right to punch you in the face.
- Spiritclaw on Battlestar Galactica
#75Burning_WolfXPosted 11/7/2012 9:02:12 AM
C_Mat posted...
God exists by necessity of His own nature.

Isn't that circular logic?
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Sometimes I'd like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it. But Im afraid He'd ask me the same thing.
#76hunter_gohanPosted 11/7/2012 1:00:17 PM
C_Mat posted...
That's a good point, but that's not the way sin/punishment is handled in the Bible. In the Bible, your sins are often compared to a debt, and from the Christian point of view Jesus "paid" that debt for you by taking your suffering.


So who are we borrowing from when we sin?

DoGCyN posted...
I don't see how this helps your case at all. If I'm reading that right...Jesus actually took our punishment yes, a punishment He didn't deserve. God doesn't demand blood for our actions, but offers His own, so that we can have life.


Do you agree with C_Mat that it's more of a debt type thing? Cause that does kinda sidestep this particular problem.

It kinda destroys any idea about "...God's Holy Judgment and all-loving sides..." though.

childofdelight posted...
But it does state that God is love.

Higher consciousness, anyone?


It also states that he's jealous. It also states that love isn't jealous.

kts123 posted...
Here's a really fun fact. If I'm right, I don't need to prove it to you, because you'll find out for yourself.


Here's a really fun fact. Pascal Wager completely fails as an argument in all respects.

C_Mat
God exists by necessity of His own nature. The universe does not


Might not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

If quantum physics is right, then the universe exists by necessity of it's own nature as "something" in the inevitable result of "nothing".

EDIT: And I certainly didn't make that up, but even if I did, you still didn't explain how a God that exists by necessity of His own nature makes less sense than a universe that necessarily exists.

Cause we know the universe exists, and also have an actual thoery on how it would exist by necessity of it's own nature. Would you like to demonstrate the existence of this god?
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Fundamentalism in a nut shell: Raphael: It's God's will. Castiel: How can you say that?! Raphael: Because it's what I want!
#77kts123Posted 11/7/2012 1:59:17 PM(edited)
Here's a really fun fact. Pascal Wager completely fails as an argument in all respects.


I know that. I hated Pascal's Wager when I was an atheist. It's essentially just a fancy false dichotomy. I'm talking about something that will happen tangibly to you as an individual -- namely, being aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit. We can argue back and forth, and I'm not saying you should convert based on me saying this. What I'm suggesting is, that there is no sense in me trying to prove something when you will find out for yourself.

My claim is not outside the realm of provability. It will either be clearly demonstrated, or not clearly demonstrated. It's not much different than me claiming it will literally rain hotdogs tomorrow. We can argue about whether or not it will rain hotdogs tomorrow, but when tomorrow comes we will know for sure one way or the other -- and if steamy franks start hitting you upside the head, the point will be clearly demonstrated, and if they do not hit you upside the head, you'll know I was wrong. But arguing today about tomorrow is senseless in this context.
#78DoGCyNPosted 11/7/2012 2:04:09 PM
hunter_gohan posted...
It kinda destroys any idea about "...God's Holy Judgment and all-loving sides..." though.


Prease exprain
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2 Corinthians 12:7-10
#79SystemafunkPosted 11/8/2012 7:30:51 AM
A child does something wrong, Dad punishes the child.
A child does something wrong, Dad punishes the child to the point where the child can learn from his mistakes and become a better person. Any punishment that goes beyond that = abuse, not love.

A human does something wrong, God punishes the human.
There is no going back from Eternal Damnation. Humans that go to hell can't learn from this punishment and can't improve themselves as moral beings. They are eternally damned.

Your analogy = destroyed.


Wrong, wrong, wrong. Hell, if it exists (and I am not terribly interested in whether it does or not, because it doesn't apply to me, and it's still better to be saved anyway) is the state of eternally rejecting God's correction and presence. It is the "prodigal son" that never returns. They have died without wanting to be corrected, and are stuck that way because of their OWN final decision. They made the final decision to "burn the bridge" forever, and so they are "cast" into the eternal fire. Not just "by God", but knowingly and of their own volition. They, even despite being presented with final evidence, and being brought before the presence of the Lord, rejected God.

As far as God's love goes, that is absolutely unconditional. God loves the lost. It is BECAUSE God loves the lost that God wants them to be corrected. The "conditionals" are for salvation. Not for God's love. If you think otherwise, you are confusing love with approval. A parent that TRULY loves their child will not just blindly approve of everything that they do.

And as far as the Bible saying God loves everyone, Jesus puts it quite plainly. He tells us to love everyone. Why? Because that is the greatest commandment. We are to love others as ourselves, just as we are to love the Lord our God. But we are not being told to be "better" than God. Jesus also tells us (repeatedly, and in fact one of the most oft repeated statements in the NT) to follow him. Not physically, but in Spirit. We are to EMULATE Jesus, and just as the story of Jesus washing the disciples feet shows, we are to SHOW OTHER PEOPLE LOVE like JESUS DID. And Paul also says, we are to emulate him in emulating Jesus.

The whole of the NT is entirely about God loving EVERYONE, not just a select few people as groups like the WBC (and apparently atheist trolls) want to claim.
#80ThuggernautzPosted 11/8/2012 8:07:44 AM
Systemafunk posted...

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Hell, if it exists (and I am not terribly interested in whether it does or not, because it doesn't apply to me, and it's still better to be saved anyway) is the state of eternally rejecting God's correction and presence. It is the "prodigal son" that never returns. They have died without wanting to be corrected, and are stuck that way because of their OWN final decision. They made the final decision to "burn the bridge" forever, and so they are "cast" into the eternal fire. Not just "by God", but knowingly and of their own volition. They, even despite being presented with final evidence, and being brought before the presence of the Lord, rejected God.

As far as God's love goes, that is absolutely unconditional. God loves the lost. It is BECAUSE God loves the lost that God wants them to be corrected. The "conditionals" are for salvation. Not for God's love. If you think otherwise, you are confusing love with approval. A parent that TRULY loves their child will not just blindly approve of everything that they do.

And as far as the Bible saying God loves everyone, Jesus puts it quite plainly. He tells us to love everyone. Why? Because that is the greatest commandment. We are to love others as ourselves, just as we are to love the Lord our God. But we are not being told to be "better" than God. Jesus also tells us (repeatedly, and in fact one of the most oft repeated statements in the NT) to follow him. Not physically, but in Spirit. We are to EMULATE Jesus, and just as the story of Jesus washing the disciples feet shows, we are to SHOW OTHER PEOPLE LOVE like JESUS DID. And Paul also says, we are to emulate him in emulating Jesus.

The whole of the NT is entirely about God loving EVERYONE, not just a select few people as groups like the WBC (and apparently atheist trolls) want to claim.


And yet, if we love Allah, or Zeus, or Krishna, or human advancement equally then we go to hell. Love everyone? I think not.