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How can God's love be unconditional if it requires the follower to repent and...

#91hunter_gohanPosted 11/8/2012 2:34:29 PM
kts123 posted...
I know that. I hated Pascal's Wager when I was an atheist. It's essentially just a fancy false dichotomy.


It certainly sounded like you were using Pascal's Wager.

I'm talking about something that will happen tangibly to you as an individual -- namely, being aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit.


I'm talking about something that will happen tangibly to you as an individual -- namely, being aware of the presence of Allah and that Muhammed is his prophet.

See how completely unconvincing basically saying "I'm right, you'll see." is?

DoGCyN posted...
Prease exprain


Do you think we should reform our justice system to match god's? Should we have let Manson walk free if one of his cronies was willing to take his punishment in his place? Of course not, because that is a travesty of justice. It isn't justice at all.

It affects the all-loving side because Jesus is free to take on the punishment for everyone. He doesn't though, he only takes on the punishment of a fraction of the number of humans who've ever lived on the basis that they believe something for which there is no evidence. If he's simply just not powerful enough to do that for some reason, then he can easily come down here and demonstrate his existence. Instead, he decides to leave no evidence and stand by and watch as 2/3 of humanity don't believe in him.

If he actually loved those people he would take their punishment as well, or at the very least provide enough evidence that he actually exists and that this religion among all the numerous others is the right one.
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#92SystemafunkPosted 11/8/2012 4:45:50 PM

Did you miss the part where I wrote that hell is the withdrawal of God's presence/love (which is the exact opposite of heaven)?


You said it was the withdrawal of God's love. Which is not true. God's presence =/= God's love. And furthermore, I am not getting sucked into a hell debate, when I don't even necessarily have a belief in hell. We are talking about one thing. Read the topic title again if you must. "How can God's love be unconditional if it requires the follower to repent and turn away from sin." The difference between God's love and salvation is a fairly straightforward and generally not even controversial aspect of Christianity.


And clearly you've missed my point, also. Whether or not I believe in God is absolutely, completely, 100% irrelevant to how good a person I am.


Which is itself entirely irrelevant to salvation. Salvation requires a relationship with God.


To punish me, or anyone else, for that (especially with the complete dearth of evidence or reason to believe that way in the first place) is NOT the action of a loving being.


Are you trying to claim that punishing anyone is never a loving act? Or are you still off on this whole eternal punishment thing? Look, salvation is not earned. It never is. No one can earn it because it is too good for anyone who isn't perfect, which is everyone except Christ. If you want to use that argument in reverse about hell, which is what I usually do (it is impossible to earn "hell" through any finite evil act) then be my guest. It is perfectly Biblically valid to not believe in a literal eternal hell. It's a tangent from this topic though. In part because hell is not a necessary conclusion.


This is a horrible analogy. The ONLY thing that salvation is conditional upon is having a relationship with God. God does not "kick you out." God does not condemn you for any single transgression or choice. God continuously allows you to come back home, no matter how far you go or what you do. The things you are trying to imply are simply not an accurate representation of any self consistent Christian worldview, and not consistent with what the Bible actually says. Unless of course you take things radically out of context.

Now, I'm not interested in having more of a discussion with you unless we can cross this bridge. You are more than free to not actually believe in this worldview. No one is forcing you to. But, you had better actually accurately represent and understand it if you want to continue a mature discussion. And that means not selectively mixing your views of Christianity with an actually self consistent understanding, or selectively mixing a theological perspective with an atheistic perspective at your own convenience. If you are not interested in actually understanding the basic tenets of Christian theology, then you should take your angstheism elsewhere.



What kind of arrogant, narcissistic being would demand that condition for salvation?


It is pure logic, plain and simple. People have free will. A relationship is a two way street. You know your root words, right? To relate? It requires two subjects?


Eternal damnation because of non-worship, even if the non-worshipper is the greatest human to have ever lived?


See, you have no idea what you are talking about. Worship is not required. Worship simply is. Someone who actually believes in God WANTS to worship. If you actually believe in God, and you actually understand even some of the scope of God, and what God is responsible for, then you can't help but worship God. Again, you really don't have any idea what you are talking about. You have a lot of completely wrong notions about God. And you aren't even willing to consider the possibility that that is the case. Why exactly should I continue to knock down strawmen?
#93SystemafunkPosted 11/8/2012 5:00:26 PM
And I just want to point out that LinkFanatic, who is himself an atheist, does in fact recognize the difference between the two, and obviously knows Christianity well enough to understand it, even though he himself doesn't believe.

Thanks Kori.


turn away from sin?

Wouldn't both acts of i) repentance, and ii) the effort to turn away from sin, themselves, be considered conditions for God's love?


And this is the crucial part here. God always loves everyone, and God's grace is always available. If God did not always love everyone, that God's grace would NOT be always available. It is because God loves even the currently "lost" that God wants them to be "found". In this respect, it is no different than a parent child relationship, or a "shepherd/sheep" relationship.
#94ThuggernautzPosted 11/8/2012 5:29:32 PM(edited)
Systemafunk posted...

A lot of stuff about how I am wrong, without any of the biblical citations I asked for


Worship just is? So, it's not a promoted activity or doctrine and It's not a condition of salvation? Either my childhood pastors and everyone around me, and the Bible, are wrong; or you have a vastly different interpretation than what I and those around me have had.

Just out of curiosity, what do you make of these rather explicit verses?

Psalms 29:2 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; worship the LORD in the splendor of holiness.

Psalms 95:6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!

Psalms 99:5 Exalt the LORD our God; worship at his footstool! Holy is he!

John 4:21-24 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

This is not ambiguous terminology. The true worshippers. The Father is seeking people to worship him. Deuteronomy outlines exactly how you should worship, there are dozens of instances of people proclaiming that those with absolute faith and who worship God are his chosen. 2 John calls all atheists and adherents of other religions as anti-christs, and we all know what happens to anti-christs. 2 Corinthians warns all believers to shun non-believers, a sentiment which is echoed in many other chapters. Mark 16:16 says very explicitly that 'he that not believeth shall be damned'. John 3:36 says that believers see eternal life, non-believers will feel the wrath of god.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)

There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46)

Does any of that sound ambiguous or loving to you? If it does, I worry about those close to you. So again, I put it to you that choosing those who worship you over those who don't and disregarding the 'good' in the non-believer just because they won't bow down and blindly follow a being who has left no reason to, are not the actions of a loving being. The actions belie the words in this case.

EDIT: If you don't believe in hell, do you believe that God withdrawing his presence simply because you choose not to worship him is a) eternal and b) a just action?
#95DoGCyNPosted 11/8/2012 11:28:46 PM
...for which there is no evidence

First off, we're assuming God exists and that this is true. Otherwise this discussion is pointless.

Do you think we should reform our justice system to match god's?

Explain where you're going with this please.

And to answer your earlier question...a debt? In which the debt can just return? No, not exactly. I suppose you could look at it like that but that sounds so... negative. It's more about restoring a broken relationship between a Holy God and His creation. Jesus is the answer to that.

If he actually loved those people he would take their punishment as well...

That's the beauty of free will. It's a gift offered. You can choose to accept it or not. He will not force you.

If you receive a present that contains the cure for your cancer and you reject it, don't be surprised when you die.
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2 Corinthians 12:7-10
#96ryan0991Posted 11/9/2012 12:29:38 AM
From: Thuggernautz | #088
There is no earthly action which is deserving of eternal damnation. And the eternal part is not the result of a loving action. This topic is about God's 'unconditional' love; but I'm arguing that throwing someone to eternal damnation on the condition that they have absolute faith in a being which has given zero reason to do so, or even zero reason to believe they exist, is not a loving action. That's my stance.

This so much

It's something that I just cannot get around.
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Could care less = you care at least somewhat. Couldn't care less = you don't care at all.
#97Barenziah Boy Toy(Topic Creator)Posted 11/9/2012 4:40:39 AM(edited)
That's the beauty of free will. It's a gift offered. You can choose to accept it or not. He will not force you.
I cannot, in Good Conscience, deny my rational nature. This isn't a matter of free will. If something makes absolutely no sense to me from an intellectual perspective, then I will not 'choose' to go with it. I am forced, by my own nature, to err on the side of reason.

If God truly existed, then She wouldn't have made me a rational creature who has no choice in the matter.

I'm a nontheist. I don't believe in God because I chose to reject Her. I don't believe in God because God (assuming She existed) created me in a manner that I can't ignore logic, reason, and evidence.
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#98SystemafunkPosted 11/9/2012 6:22:16 AM
So now this discussion has gone from the actual topic question to "I can't rationally believe in God" (which isn't actually true, since rationale =/= hard evidence). Or from the topic to whether or not the Bible actually proposes a literal hell?

Are we to agree then that "conditional salvation" =/= "conditional love"?
#99ThuggernautzPosted 11/9/2012 7:53:35 AM
No, because as I've said, I don't think the condition of salvation shows a loving action; in fact I think it shows the opposite, and I'm not sure how you can equate eternal damnation with love.
#100DoGCyNPosted 11/9/2012 8:46:41 AM
To you too! Hope your weekend is as awesome as mine should be! :D

Somehow missed this post.

I'm greatly looking forward to this weekend! Got The Walking Dead Ep 5 to watch and some other interesting events. Cannot. Wait. For it. lol
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2 Corinthians 12:7-10