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New Coptic Pope elected!

#11CorporateKnight(Topic Creator)Posted 11/12/2012 6:07:53 PM(edited)
the_hedonist posted...
But if they have to recognize all the councils, is that not essenitally conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy? Couldn't the EO church allow reunion and also allow there to be individuals in the Church to not recognize all the same councils as ecumenical? To me, only allowing the OO in granted recognition of all 7 councils is forcing conversion, not reunion.


But they don't change their praxis nor their traditions. Just the signing of some paperz mang
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#12Burning_WolfXPosted 11/12/2012 6:17:09 PM
the_hedonist posted...
But if they have to recognize all the councils, is that not essenitally conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy? Couldn't the EO church allow reunion and also allow there to be individuals in the Church to not recognize all the same councils as ecumenical? To me, only allowing the OO in granted recognition of all 7 councils is forcing conversion, not reunion.


The OO wouldn't have to change a single thing that they believe, nor would they have to change their praxis. All they would simply have to do is recognize the last 4 councils as valid expressions of the Orthodox Faith (and IIRC, there's nothing in any of those 4 councils that the OO wouldn't already agree with), and both sides would have to repeal the various anathemas against each others' Saints and Fathers. There would be no "conversion" from OO to EO or vice-versa, just a recognition between EO and OO that each side has held the same Orthodox faith all along.
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Sometimes I'd like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it. But Im afraid He'd ask me the same thing.
#13the_hedonistPosted 11/12/2012 6:24:18 PM
But what Christians believe includes what their authority is. For most Christians, ecumenical councils is included in that authority. The question is which councils are truly ecumenical. Perhaps they would agree with the content of the councils, but not their status as ecumenical. In other words...

Would it be correct to say that the Oriental Orthodox deny ecumenical status to some councils that the EOC grant it to?

If so, they are changing their beliefs to be accepted by the EO, in this case, not the doctrine espoused by the councils, but the ecumenical status of the councils.
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"Knowing is the responsible human struggle to rely on clues to focus on a coherent pattern and submit to its reality." -Esther Meek
#14Chaos ScadePosted 11/12/2012 6:28:16 PM
Yeah, conversion to "Eastern Orthodoxy" makes it sound like we'd force them to adopt Byzantine liturgical praxis and theological expression. I suppose one could say that they would be required to "convert" to Orthodoxy in the sense that from our point of view, they would need to acknowledge that even if in substance they believe the same things as us (though I get the feeling there might be a few underlying issues that would need to be ironed out), that they had been in schism from the Orthodox Church... just like if there was an Byzantine-rite schism from the Orthodox Church in the last 50-100 years, there would be an element of them being "received" back in even though it probably wouldn't be proper to talk about it as being a conversion as such.

Regardless, I don't think there's going to be any wholesale Eastern Orthodox-Oriental Orthodox reunion as such. Like I said before, I think it's more likely that large groups from the Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria and Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch will unite with the Chalcedonian Patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch (and make them that much more liturgically and spiritually rich in the process), but I wouldn't hold my breath with regard to the Ethiopians, Eritreans, Armenians (and possibly Indians) for a while longer. Though I could see the Armenians negotiating with the Georgian and Russian churches and uniting with Orthodoxy in that manner.
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#15Burning_WolfXPosted 11/12/2012 6:33:56 PM
the_hedonist posted...
But what Christians believe includes what their authority is. For most Christians, ecumenical councils is included in that authority. The question is which councils are truly ecumenical. Perhaps they would agree with the content of the councils, but not their status as ecumenical. In other words...

Would it be correct to say that the Oriental Orthodox deny ecumenical status to some councils that the EOC grant it to?

If so, they are changing their beliefs to be accepted by the EO, in this case, not the doctrine espoused by the councils, but the ecumenical status of the councils.


I think at that point, it comes down to mere formalities and administrative stuff. If they agree with us about the contents of the Ecumenical Councils, then as far as we care, they are just as Orthodox as us. But what makes a Council ecumenical in the first place might be a good question to ask in this case.
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Sometimes I'd like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it. But Im afraid He'd ask me the same thing.
#16Chaos ScadePosted 11/12/2012 6:42:11 PM(edited)
the_hedonist posted...
Would it be correct to say that the Oriental Orthodox deny ecumenical status to some councils that the EOC grant it to?


They say they aren't ecumenical because they weren't in attendance/didn't accept them. It's really an extension of the position that we are ecclesiological equals in their eyes (for the most part, at least since the ecumenical dialogue of the last century) rather than them being in schism from us.
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#17the_hedonistPosted 11/13/2012 1:15:48 PM
Perhaps you are not saying wholesale conversion is necessary, but at least partly conversion is necessary. They seem to be the ones needing change, not you.

Good question, BurningWolf. What makes a council ecumenical? I would assume ecumenical means it is representative of the entire Christian Church. But does it mean the council has representatives from all regions or bishoprics? Or does it simply mean the content that the council affirmed is representative of the beliefs of the Church?

Obviously we are going to disagree on this, since I am a Protestant who is much more "ecumenical" than the Eastern Orthodox tend to be. But I would be interested in hearing the other side.
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"Knowing is the responsible human struggle to rely on clues to focus on a coherent pattern and submit to its reality." -Esther Meek