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I'm calling you out, Marioguy5. Let's debate evolution and creationism

#131ThuggernautzPosted 12/7/2012 1:40:33 PM
Proudclad posted...
The Bible doesn't promote or even hint at the earth being 6,000 years old. If anything, the opposite. "Day" is "yom" which means a span of time. So six spans of time. Not necessarily a 24-hour period.


And the argument that YECs use is that "yom" is often (but not always) used in the Bible to mean actual days, and that talking about morning and evening doesn't make a lot of sense unless talking of actual days.


So now they aren't crazy but merely willfully ignorant? What about atheists who argue against the Bible for things the Bible doesn't even teach or promote? Perhaps you shouldn't evaluate anyone's sanity or ignorance level. I hope you aren't so invested in your worldview that you'd resort to blanket statements and insults.


That depends, are they arguing on interpretations like all the different denominations do? Are they arguing about historicity? The difference between this example and the wilful ignorance of creationists is that there is mountains and mountains of evidence and almost a universal consensus opposing their hypothesis. Unlike biblical arguments, which just end up being exercises in yelling that your interpretation is the 'true' one the loudest, without being able to provide any solid evidence to support that position. And I don't mean to disparage or insult by calling YECs wilfully ignorant, it just happens to be the best descriptors for their position.
#132ProudcladPosted 12/7/2012 4:41:52 PM
I don't care what YECs say. The Bible is very clear on what a "day" is to the Lord. It's a long period of time, with variable meaning depending on the situation. Morning and evening do make sense. Just like the God might use the word "seasons" to describe changes, morning and evening indicate a beginning of the period and a conclusion to the period.

Be it interpretations, historicity, etc, there are a ton of atheists routinely arguing garbage. Are they crazy too, according to you? Or just willfully ignorant? My favorite example is "Jesus didn't even exist", which is a theory that has been extensively refuted. (For some brief examination of scholarly consensus, look at my 2nd video response to MrRepzion. Around the 12 minute mark, IIRC)
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#133ThuggernautzPosted 12/9/2012 10:54:20 AM(edited)
Proudclad posted...
I don't care what YECs say. The Bible is very clear on what a "day" is to the Lord. It's a long period of time, with variable meaning depending on the situation. Morning and evening do make sense. Just like the God might use the word "seasons" to describe changes, morning and evening indicate a beginning of the period and a conclusion to the period.


It's not clear at all, it's ambiguous as hell. One of the problems with ancient Hebrew is the very few terms it has available, to the order of around 8700 words used to describe things compared to millions in modern english. As a result, certain words (like Yom) are used to mean all kinds of things throughout the Bible, and it is often used to mean an exact 'day', not a 'stretch of time'. Now, you can argue for morning and evening being some kind of metaphorical terms for beginning and end, but those terms fit better with Yom meaning an actual day.

And this is a big problem. There is no primer on exactly what the vague words are specifically defined as. There is no modern, more accurate and descriptive Bible dictated by a new Moses; each interpretation can be (and are) argued as the only true one, but neither parties can possibly know that because of the nature of the language. Does it not trouble you that a book that is supposed to be the greatest work ever written, a written history and law book of God's mandate can be so very vague on some rather important details? Perhaps God just needs a better editor.


Be it interpretations, historicity, etc, there are a ton of atheists routinely arguing garbage. Are they crazy too, according to you? Or just willfully ignorant? My favorite example is "Jesus didn't even exist", which is a theory that has been extensively refuted. (For some brief examination of scholarly consensus, look at my 2nd video response to MrRepzion. Around the 12 minute mark, IIRC)


Absolutely, I would call your example a case of someone being wilfully ignorant. However, the two different claims are vastly different. YECs are ignorant on a scale probably only matched by those who still believe in geocentrism. (Yes, they are still around. In fact, there's one that posts on this board). Jesus has even less evidence than Alexander the Great (there's lots of archaeological evidence of Alexander's military campaigns and actions, not so for Jesus). But Jesus' existence is quite well documented as far as ancient figures go.
#134lastheroPosted 12/9/2012 11:45:47 AM
It actually doesn't matter all that much if a creation day is a literal day or a billion years - the order of creation is wholly different from the way science determines evolution to work, the way planets and stars form, even the way light works. It's not like once you've gotten past the day-age thing that creation and evolutionary claims just sync up.
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#135ThuggernautzPosted 12/10/2012 3:02:21 PM
And our knowledge marches inexorably forward. This new study bolsters the evidence for low oxygen levels in early Earth, and also changing sea chemistry as a result of ancient microbial life.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121210133500.htm

I think we can put this point to rest.