This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

I'm calling you out, Marioguy5. Let's debate evolution and creationism

#71CdrRoguePosted 11/14/2012 7:22:30 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#72Marioguy5Posted 11/14/2012 7:35:16 AM
Fingerpuppet posted...
I'm sure that he's going to blow us all away with something extraordinary (although it's probably not a good thing) and then leave, just as he said he would.


Actually, I've changed my mind. Some people are actually listening, and it's been fairly non-violent so far. And I'm not a blower-awayer. I build. I debate slowly. If you don't like that....You'll just have to deal with it. *shrugs*
Anyways, Ave summed up my basic point I was trying to make now. At it's core, evolution is based on luck, time, and chance. Natural selection works, but it can't cause the evolution process, and thus the evolving (through mutations) of the creatures is completely 100% random. Thanks for joining in Ave! But just to keep things fair, don't post all that much, just about as much as Thuggz does.
OK, moving on. I have some questions for either you or Thuggz. These aren't attacks, but they're things I've wondered about for a while, and I don't want to be ignorant of things we may argue about.
-How did the aquatic life in the depths (deep deep underwater) get there? It's harder to get food, the pressure is extreme, there is no light, etc. Yet there are SO MANY different, unrelated life forms down there.
-Exactly how did plants evolve?
-How did oxygen appear in Earth's atmosphere?
Thanks!
---
If you are a Christian and 110% proud of it, put this as your signature.
If you are interested in science, check out the work of Dr. Carl Werner.
#73Marioguy5Posted 11/14/2012 7:39:17 AM
halo07guy posted...
Just thought I'd add my two cents.

Regarding mutations, they aren't clear cut, as in only ever good/neutral/bad. Take for example sickle cell disease. It is caused by a recessive allele, meaning the child must have two copies of the recessive allele to display the disease. It is a debilitating and sometimes lethal disease. Why then is it so prevalent in Africa? Because the red blood cell deformities caused by sickle cell disease make the person largely immune to the effects of malaria. Heterozygous carriers for the disease fair far better that those who aren't carriers or those who have the disease, as the recessive allele still imbues some of the anti-malaria properties even without causing the disease.

That is one example of something that would normally be considered a disadvantage actually becoming an advantage due to the effects that would normally be considered harmful.

Also, consider epistasis, where genes "upstream" of another gene determine whether or not and to what degree a gene is expressed. This is actually where yellow labradors come from. An epistatic gene overrides the gene that would have coded for coat color. You can tell what color the lab should have been by looking at the nose. A black nose means the yellow lab should have had black fur, and a brown nose means it should have had brown fur.

Also, consider the fact that epistatic genes are themselves affected by epistasis.


Good points, but remember that though that harmful-beneficial mutation helped in the short run, it resulted in a net loss of information and made the cells less adapted and more vulnerable for the future.
I never heard that about labs, pretty interesting. Can it do more than change their fur color?
---
If you are a Christian and 110% proud of it, put this as your signature.
If you are interested in science, check out the work of Dr. Carl Werner.
#74halo07guyPosted 11/14/2012 8:23:57 AM
Marioguy5 posted...

Good points, but remember that though that harmful-beneficial mutation helped in the short run, it resulted in a net loss of information and made the cells less adapted and more vulnerable for the future.
I never heard that about labs, pretty interesting. Can it do more than change their fur color?


That was just one example of epistasis. It can do more than change fur color. It's just that's a good way to demonstrate the concept. A good way to think of epistasis is as a light switch or dimmer, and the gene it affects as the light source. Of course, this analogy only applies when a gene is only affected by one other epistatic gene. The epistatic gene itself can be affected by another epistatic gene, so it becomes very complicated at that point. Still, another good example of epistasis albinism in animals. Any albino animal has had the gene coding for skin pigmentation shut off by another epistatic gene.

Also, difference between dominance and epistasis: dominance is when one allele overrides another. Epistasis is when one gene overrides or affects the expression of a different gene.

By the way, it is inaccurate to say that information is lost in mutations. There are three types of mutations: frame-shift, missense, and nonsense.

Frame-shift is when a nucleotide is inserted or deleted, shifting the entire sequence by however many nucleotides were added or deleted. This causes it to code for something completely different, or nothing at all if the sequence isn't divisible by three (mRNA is read three at a time. If the segment of DNA isn't divisible by three, it can't be read properly).

Missense is when a nucleotide is changed to a still valid series. This can change the protein made, and several genetic disorders are caused by this. However, they are just as likely to be harmless, as there are many combinations that can code for the same codon and anti-codon.

Nonsense is when an early stop codon is created in the sequence through one of the above means, causing the amino acid synthesis to stop early. These are a serious cause of genetic diseases.

Overall, it is more accurate to say information is changed, not lost.

I tried to make it as clear as I could. Clear as mud?
#75ThuggernautzPosted 11/14/2012 8:31:39 AM(edited)
Marioguy5 posted...

-How did the aquatic life in the depths (deep deep underwater) get there? It's harder to get food, the pressure is extreme, there is no light, etc. Yet there are SO MANY different, unrelated life forms down there.
-Exactly how did plants evolve?
-How did oxygen appear in Earth's atmosphere?
Thanks!


Sorry Finger, but I'm waiting to grab data here in the morning and have some time so I might just jump in. If you want me to not interject, let me know.

Firstly, genetic mutations are not always 100% random; let's be clear about that. There are many reasons for mutation, and mutations can even be wilfully incited and somewhat controlled through radiation, virii and mutagenic chemicals. As a result, certain environmental situations are known to produce much higher rates of mutation etc. However, by and large, it can be considered random. Just not 100%, so you and Ave need to step away from that idea. It's extremely rare to get such absolutes in science and in nature.

Aquatic life got there in the same way that life got everywhere else on earth; it evolved into its environment. Have a look at the adaptations of deep, deep sea life. Most of them have no eyes, or skin pigmentation because there's not enough light to make those adaptations useful. Having those kinds of things down there is a waste of energy and provide no purpose. When you say it's harder to get food, pressure etc; yes, for us. Because we and all other land creatures are not adapted to those environments. But those creatures are. In fact, their forms have adapted perfectly to their ecosystem, and because that area is so large, it's not even a delicate balance. Imagine, if you will, that overnight all eucalyptus trees died. Koalas would die out, and there's nowhere for them to move to; those plants are native to Australia. Many species on Madagascar have a very tiny environment and conditions that they have adapted to. Humans, through technology, are able to overcome environmental niches. But we are still vulnerable to radiation, unlike cockroaches for example.

Plants were not the only organisms to exist during the early evolution of life. Firstly, it must be understood what plants encompasses. Plants are not just grass, flowers and trees. Algae is a plant, as is moss. And it is algal mats and other photosynthetic organisms which first starting creating oxygen en masse, nearly 1.2 billion years ago. Think about how vast an amount of time that is, because complex land plants didn't begin to appear until the Ordovician period, 450 million years ago. That's a timescale between the two of ~570 million years. Think of how much accumulated genetic mutation would occur in that time, and you may begin to understand how morphology can change so much. And this point ties into the next.

Oxygen. Hopefully you already have some base knowledge of the oxygen cycle, and that the majority of the planet's oxygen is still produced via photosynthesis. However, most plants use CO2 for this, but not the only one. Which is perfectly fine, because not all organisms need it for photosynthesis. In fact, the organisms around during the oxygenation of the atmosphere (on a huge scale, thanks to massive marine algal populations and few, if any, predators) were from green and purple sulfur, and green and purple non-sulfur bacteria. Sulfur was available in huge quantities during the active volcanism of early Earth, as were various amino acids (which really are common, they're even found on meteorites); and early photosynthetic organisms used those (and still do!) to create oxygen. Lots, and lots of oxygen. Over these huge amounts of time described previously, certain organisms began to use oxygen in their own respiration cycles; resulting in CO2 waste. Over time, as sulfur levels decreased, algae and plants adapted to use CO2 instead of sulfur. Resulting in the current oxygen cycle we have today.
#76Fingerpuppet(Topic Creator)Posted 11/14/2012 9:19:25 AM
At it's core, evolution is based on luck, time, and chance. Natural selection works, but it can't cause the evolution process, and thus the evolving (through mutations) of the creatures is completely 100% random.

Natural selection is the main process by which evolution works. Desirable mutations are passed on to subsequent generations while harmful or useless ones don't make it, and eventually these changes build until there is a distinguishable species from the parent species. That is not random; the mutations are.



Thanks for joining in Ave! But just to keep things fair, don't post all that much, just about as much as Thuggz does.

He's fine to post as much as he wants. It won't bother me.

-How did the aquatic life in the depths (deep deep underwater) get there? It's harder to get food, the pressure is extreme, there is no light, etc. Yet there are SO MANY different, unrelated life forms down there.

http://bit.ly/T3hDwu

-Exactly how did plants evolve?

The exact same way animals and bacteria do. You are aware that plants have sexes, right?

-How did oxygen appear in Earth's atmosphere?

The same way it does today: most plants and some bacteria require CO2 and transform it into O2, which is a waste product for most plants.
---
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/214-paranormal-conspiracy/63352960#16
The greatest shut down ever.
#77Marioguy5Posted 11/14/2012 10:18:11 AM
Fingerpuppet posted...
At it's core, evolution is based on luck, time, and chance. Natural selection works, but it can't cause the evolution process, and thus the evolving (through mutations) of the creatures is completely 100% random.

Natural selection is the main process by which evolution works. Desirable mutations are passed on to subsequent generations while harmful or useless ones don't make it, and eventually these changes build until there is a distinguishable species from the parent species. That is not random; the mutations are.



Thanks for joining in Ave! But just to keep things fair, don't post all that much, just about as much as Thuggz does.

He's fine to post as much as he wants. It won't bother me.

-How did the aquatic life in the depths (deep deep underwater) get there? It's harder to get food, the pressure is extreme, there is no light, etc. Yet there are SO MANY different, unrelated life forms down there.

http://bit.ly/T3hDwu

-Exactly how did plants evolve?

The exact same way animals and bacteria do. You are aware that plants have sexes, right?

-How did oxygen appear in Earth's atmosphere?

The same way it does today: most plants and some bacteria require CO2 and transform it into O2, which is a waste product for most plants.


OK, Ave, feel free to post now!
I didn't ask how life formed in the ocean, but how it appeared in the depths. But Thuggz gave a pretty good answer. But I have another question connected to that. How did plant-like organisms (I realize they're not plants) like Giant Tube Worms form? Did the fish wander down there then slowly evolve into things like that?
I admittedly don't know as much about plants as I do about various other things.
So the oxygen formed from plants (including algae) and bacteria? OK, I'll remember that for future discussion. When did CO2 enter the atmosphere?
---
If you are a Christian and 110% proud of it, put this as your signature.
If you are interested in science, check out the work of Dr. Carl Werner.
#78Fingerpuppet(Topic Creator)Posted 11/14/2012 11:12:23 AM
How did plant-like organisms (I realize they're not plants) like Giant Tube Worms form?

I don't know. I'm not a biologist, but I'm sure that you could Google it.

Did the fish wander down there then slowly evolve into things like that?

Probably.

So the oxygen formed from plants (including algae) and bacteria?

No, oxygen does not "form" from plants. Oxygen is a waste product that plants do not need, and so they expel it.

When did CO2 enter the atmosphere?

It came from volcanic activity while the Earth was still young and volatile.
---
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/214-paranormal-conspiracy/63352960#16
The greatest shut down ever.
#79Marioguy5Posted 11/14/2012 11:17:43 AM
Fingerpuppet posted...
How did plant-like organisms (I realize they're not plants) like Giant Tube Worms form?

I don't know. I'm not a biologist, but I'm sure that you could Google it.

Did the fish wander down there then slowly evolve into things like that?

Probably.

So the oxygen formed from plants (including algae) and bacteria?

No, oxygen does not "form" from plants. Oxygen is a waste product that plants do not need, and so they expel it.

When did CO2 enter the atmosphere?

It came from volcanic activity while the Earth was still young and volatile.


I COULD google it, but this way I find out what you guys think. Thuggz can answer these questions if he wants.
Yeah, I know it doesn't really "form", but you know very well what I meant.
OK, volcanic activity. I can accept that.
---
If you are a Christian and 110% proud of it, put this as your signature.
If you are interested in science, check out the work of Dr. Carl Werner.
#80Fingerpuppet(Topic Creator)Posted 11/14/2012 11:33:21 AM
You're not very good at this. You're not making any points and are instead asking questions that can easily be answered by doing your own research.
---
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/214-paranormal-conspiracy/63352960#16
The greatest shut down ever.