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I'm calling you out, Marioguy5. Let's debate evolution and creationism

#81ThuggernautzPosted 11/14/2012 10:41:24 AM
Marioguy5 posted...
How did plant-like organisms (I realize they're not plants) like Giant Tube Worms form? Did the fish wander down there then slowly evolve into things like that?


No, what we recognize as fish (not a monophyletic term) are one evolutionary branch of a common ancestor. Things like tube worms (which are soft bodied and therefore very difficult to find fossil evidence for, like jellyfish), are of the Polychaetes class, of the Annelida order. Annelids and arthropods are thought to have had a common ancestor from about 500-600 million years ago, and chordates emerged from the common ancestor of protostomes and deuterostomes approximately 558 million years ago. Both of these dates are before the Cambrian explosion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychaete


I admittedly don't know as much about plants as I do about various other things.
So the oxygen formed from plants (including algae) and bacteria? OK, I'll remember that for future discussion. When did CO2 enter the atmosphere?


No, oxygen was always around since planetary formation; it was simply at a MUCH lower concentration than before the oxygen cycle began. CO2 was in the atmosphere in very high concentrations during the volcanic phase of the planet, as the venting of gases and volcanism on the very hot earth was in effect. This lasted until the planet cooled sufficiently to form rain, from which the oceans resulted. Previously, the planet was filled with steam and incredible amounts of greenhouse gases, locking in a lot of the lighter elements underneath. From the oceans, and the highly sulfuric land and 'fresh' water, algae and other early biology began photosynthesis and producing oxygen as a waste product.
#82kozlo100Posted 11/14/2012 10:47:40 AM
Fingerpuppet posted...
You're not making any points and are instead asking questions that can easily be answered by doing your own research.


Asking questions is a tried and true method of debate.

Wikipedia
The Socratic method (also known as method of elenchus, elenctic method, Socratic irony, or Socratic debate), named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas.

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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#83ThuggernautzPosted 11/14/2012 10:57:42 AM(edited)
Kozlo raises a good point. So, Mario, with all of this new knowledge can you explain and provide evidence or studies that show that tube worms, trilobytes, photosynthetic bacteria were created by God at the same time as all the other animals? Can you explain the discrepancy between stratigraphy, geology, the fossil record and the creation hypothesis?
#84Marioguy5Posted 11/14/2012 11:00:05 AM(edited)
kozlo100 posted...
Fingerpuppet posted...
You're not making any points and are instead asking questions that can easily be answered by doing your own research.


Asking questions is a tried and true method of debate.

Wikipedia
The Socratic method (also known as method of elenchus, elenctic method, Socratic irony, or Socratic debate), named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas.


Exactly! You're my new buddy :)

Another question involving this all. What about UV rays and Ozone? Oxygen is poisonous to the formation of amino acids. Ozone is O3. Without the ozone layer, life couldn't form, even in (shallow) water. The UV rays would burn everything up. In order to have O3, you need oxygen(obviously). Not enough oxygen could be produced without the oxygen cycle, which requires living organisms, which require an ozone layer to protect them.
This is a paradox I don't really understand yet, please enlighten me.
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If you are a Christian and 110% proud of it, put this as your signature.
If you are interested in science, check out the work of Dr. Carl Werner.
#85Marioguy5Posted 11/14/2012 10:59:33 AM
Thuggernautz posted...
Kozlo raises a good point. So, Mario, with all of this new knowledge can you explain the evidence that tube worms were created by God at the same time as all the other animals? Can you explain the discrepancy between stratigraphy, geology, the fossil record and the theory of creation?


They weren't created exactly the same time. And what discrepancy? Why couldn't God just put them there? If he can make reality, don't you think he could create tube worms?
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If you are a Christian and 110% proud of it, put this as your signature.
If you are interested in science, check out the work of Dr. Carl Werner.
#86Fingerpuppet(Topic Creator)Posted 11/14/2012 11:05:21 AM
kozlo100 posted...
Fingerpuppet posted...
You're not making any points and are instead asking questions that can easily be answered by doing your own research.


Asking questions is a tried and true method of debate.


The problem is that he's asking questions that he can answer with a quick search on Google.

Marioguy5 posted...
Another question involving this all. What about UV rays and Ozone? Oxygen is poisonous to the formation of amino acids. Ozone is O3. Without the ozone layer, life couldn't form, even in (shallow) water. The UV rays would burn everything up. In order to have O3, you need oxygen(obviously). Not enough oxygen could be produced without the oxygen cycle, which requires living organisms, which require an ozone layer to protect them.
This is a paradox I don't really understand yet, please enlighten me.


Looks like someone forgot that life has to form before life can synthesize oxygen.

As for your ozone and UV questions...

www.google.com

You have a couple of options here...

1. Ask me questions and get redirected to Google
2. Ask questions and Google them

Besides, we are debating evolution and not the creation of life. Once again, you fail to make the distinction between the two. Please get back on topic or start providing arguments for creationism.
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http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/214-paranormal-conspiracy/63352960#16
The greatest shut down ever.
#87Marioguy5Posted 11/14/2012 11:10:47 AM
Fingerpuppet posted...
kozlo100 posted...
Fingerpuppet posted...
You're not making any points and are instead asking questions that can easily be answered by doing your own research.


Asking questions is a tried and true method of debate.


The problem is that he's asking questions that he can answer with a quick search on Google.

Marioguy5 posted...
Another question involving this all. What about UV rays and Ozone? Oxygen is poisonous to the formation of amino acids. Ozone is O3. Without the ozone layer, life couldn't form, even in (shallow) water. The UV rays would burn everything up. In order to have O3, you need oxygen(obviously). Not enough oxygen could be produced without the oxygen cycle, which requires living organisms, which require an ozone layer to protect them.
This is a paradox I don't really understand yet, please enlighten me.


Looks like someone forgot that life has to form before life can synthesize oxygen.

As for your ozone and UV questions...

www.google.com

You have a couple of options here...

1. Ask me questions and get redirected to Google
2. Ask questions and Google them

Besides, we are debating evolution and not the creation of life. Once again, you fail to make the distinction between the two. Please get back on topic or start providing arguments for creationism.


Can I just debate with Thuggz? He actually responds and answers me. And I didn't forget that life had to form first. THAT WAS ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS!
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If you are a Christian and 110% proud of it, put this as your signature.
If you are interested in science, check out the work of Dr. Carl Werner.
#88Marioguy5Posted 11/14/2012 11:13:40 AM
I'm almost done for now. I might post more later today. After that, I'll be gone for a day or two.
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If you are a Christian and 110% proud of it, put this as your signature.
If you are interested in science, check out the work of Dr. Carl Werner.
#89kozlo100Posted 11/14/2012 11:14:01 AM
Fingerpuppet posted...
The problem is that he's asking questions that he can answer with a quick search on Google.


Simple, easy to answer questions are often used in the beginnings of a Socratic debate to lay the groundwork for the argument. It's akin to laying out your basic axioms and assertions in a more declarative style.

The approach I suggest you take, now that you're aware he's using the Socratic method, is to ask questions of your own that you think will lead answers that reinforce your position or invalidate his. Like any debate, it's a two way street. Use your side of it.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#90ThuggernautzPosted 11/14/2012 11:16:26 AM
Marioguy5 posted...

Another question involving this all. What about UV rays and Ozone? Oxygen is poisonous to the formation of amino acids. Ozone is O3. Without the ozone layer, life couldn't form, even in (shallow) water. The UV rays would burn everything up. In order to O3, you need oxygen(obviously). Not enough oxygen could be produced without the oxygen cycle, which requires living organisms, which require an ozone layer to protect them.
This is a paradox I don't really understand yet, please enlighten me.


I explained this earlier. Oxygen and other elements were trapped under a heavy atmosphere of greenhouse gases, which prevented much of anything from escaping. This thick atmosphere also had the added benefit of providing a strong barrier from the huge amount of impacts during this period of planetary formation. Incidentally, many of these meteors also contained a huge amount of water, nitrogen and amino acids (look up the Murchison meteorite for an example of how many amino acids are just floating around in space) which through the impact degassing process was released into the fledgling atmosphere.

Oxygen is actually one of the key components of all amino acids, and I'm not sure where you got the idea that it's toxic to amino acid formation. It's actually the opposite, it's NEEDED in amino acid formation. In fact, amino acids protect biological samples from toxicity from too high levels of oxygen (relative to other atmospheric elements):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v262/n5567/abs/262418a0.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5926739

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acids

Now, despite the high radiation from the lack of an ozone layer, know what else is really good at stopping UV radiation? Water. It's no small wonder that life began in the seas, with one of the leading theories being hydrothermal vents deep under the protect layer of the ocean as the ideal starting point for life. Further, we know from organisms that are STILL ALIVE today, there are extremophiles that can withstand obscene amounts of radiation; far more than would have made it through the thick water vapour and greenhouse gas atmosphere. Luckily for them, there would have been little predation and so their populations could expand dramatically, leading to the oxygen cycle.