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Christian extremists hoping for the rapture are a sad lot

#11Chaos ScadePosted 11/17/2012 6:00:38 AM
yes
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Taste the fountain of immortality.
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#12SuibomPosted 11/17/2012 6:03:27 AM
Pics now
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"Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body." Hebrews 13:3 ESV
#13SirThinkALotPosted 11/17/2012 7:39:37 AM
Suibom posted...
Burning_WolfX posted...
The Orthodox Church has never taught the Rapture


They should. It's 100% scriptural.


No it isnt.
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#14SuibomPosted 11/17/2012 7:54:40 AM
I have to work today, have a date night tonight, and will be busy most of tomorrow, but Sunday night I'd love to discuss this if you want.

I may be able to sneak in some posts at lunch today to at least outline my position.
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"Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body." Hebrews 13:3 ESV
#15SirThinkALotPosted 11/17/2012 8:38:13 AM
I may be busy Sunday evening, but if you post your position, I'll respond when I get a chance(as I normally do).

Since I have time I'll cover some of the more commonly used verses to support the idea of the rapture and why I dont think they show it, if I'v misconstrued something or misread your position feel free to correct me:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,[k] with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage[l] one another with these words.
-1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

This is probably the most common verse used to defend the idea of a 'rapture', but I really cant understand why, as its clearly describing the second coming/final Resurrection. I seriously dont understand how you can possibly read a description of shouts and angels trumpeting and the dead rising as a secretive 'coming' where in believers will be whisked away from the earth before/during a tribulation.

We will not all fall asleep,
but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible,
and we will be changed.
1 Corinthians 15: 52

Well for starters, lets note that the reference to trumpets and the ressurection of the dead suggests this as a reference to the final ressurection rather than a rapture, and this is made even more clear in context, I dont usually like doing multiple posts, but because this entire chapter is so commonly misunderstood, I'm going to post the full context and my comments in the next post:
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#16SirThinkALotPosted 11/17/2012 8:50:43 AM
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?” 36 Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow—you are not sowing the future body, but only a seed,[l] perhaps of wheat or another grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He wants, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh; there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones. 41 There is a splendor of the sun, another of the moon, and another of the stars; for one star differs from another star in splendor. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead:

Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
43 sown in dishonor, raised in glory;
sown in weakness, raised in power;
44 sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being;[m] the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual.

47 The first man was from the earth
and made of dust;
the second man is[n] from heaven.
48 Like the man made of dust,
so are those who are made of dust;
like the heavenly man,
so are those who are heavenly.
49 And just as we have borne
the image of the man made of dust,
we will also bear
the image of the heavenly man.
Victorious Resurrection

50 Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption. 51 Listen! I am telling you a mystery:

We will not all fall asleep,
but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible,
and we will be changed.
53 For this corruptible must be clothed
with incorruptibility,
and this mortal must be clothed
with immortality.
54 When this corruptible is clothed
with incorruptibility,
and this mortal is clothed
with immortality,
then the saying that is written will take place:
Death has been swallowed up in victory.[o]
55 Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?[p]
56 Now the sting of death is sin,
and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ!
58 Therefore, my dear brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the Lord’s work, knowing that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
-1 Corinthians 15: 35-58

This should make it clear what Paul is doing here(theres actually more context I wanted to post, but it wouldnt fit, I encourage you to read the full chapter in its entirety): He's describing, in great detail the nature of the final Resurrection and offering a rebuttal to a group within the Corinth church who(probably inspired by Greek/platonic philosophy) denied it would happen. In context or original verse has nothing to do with the tribulation or believers being whisked away from the earth. Rather hes saying that, at the final Resurrection, those believers who are still alive will also have their bodies changed to be like those who are Resurrection. (FINAL VERSE COVERED IN NEXT POST)
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#17SirThinkALotPosted 11/17/2012 8:56:27 AM
34 I tell you, on that night two will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left. [36 Two will be in a field: One will be taken, and the other will be left.]”[o]


This is probably the strongest verse in support of the rapture, but the phrasing is rather ambiguous. It could mean that some will be taken away to safety and others left for judgement, but it could very well mean exactly the oppiset: Some will be taken for judgement and the rest left behind safely. I think you would have to establish the rapture on other grounds before you can use this in defense of the doctrine.

Well those are the verses I'v most commonly heard used in defense of the rapture doctrine. If you have any others, or if you have a response to my points I'm willing to listen
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#18JonWood007Posted 11/17/2012 10:11:10 AM
Suibom posted...
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:1-9 NKJV)


You do realize the more vague the prophecy is, the less likely it actually predicts anything, even if something happens, right?

Also, look at the verse n thessalonians about the ratpure, wanna know why it was written? People thought that Jesus coming back was gonna be immediate, within their lifetimes, but as the community began dying, Paul had to make up the whole rapture thing.

I actually came back in here to tell JonWood that I think his thinking on these issues is really simplistic (after reading his post earlier on my phone), and then I see that you've gone and done this.


Now you see why I end up writing the way I do? =P

Remember, I'm more familiar with American Christianity, and a lot of my posts target American Christianity's interpretation of scripture. I don't accept the preterist interpretation either beyond the whole "well they wrote it after the destruction of Jerusalem" thing either (which means it was written after it happened), and I think it has problems as far as rapture and revelation goes. Nothing special about that.

I think it's good literature, but nothing more.
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#19SuibomPosted 11/17/2012 11:19:50 AM
I believe, from my reading of the Bible, in a mid-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

I believe it will occur during the tribulation after the blowing of the Last Trumpet, but before the bowls of the wrath of God are poured out upon the earth.

This is why I do:

1. Jesus spoke of it in His teachings about the end of this age.
- A trumpet would sound
- Angels will be sent to gather His elect
- His elect will be taken while the rest are left.
- Those that are taken will be rescued from the judgment that will follow, just as in the story of Noah

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." (Matthew 24:29-44 NKJV)
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"Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body." Hebrews 13:3 ESV
#20SuibomPosted 11/17/2012 11:20:58 AM
2. Paul spoke of it in his teachings on the Resurrection.
- The Lord will descend with a trumpet (the last trumpet as 1 Corinthians 15:52 states)
- The dead in Christ will rise (Paul also taught this in 1 Corinthians 15, concerning our mortal bodies putting on immortality at the sounding of the trumpet)
- All the family will be caught up together in the clouds

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (I Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV)

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (I Corinthians 15:50-54 NKJV)
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"Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body." Hebrews 13:3 ESV