This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

Christian extremists hoping for the rapture are a sad lot

#41AuraBlaze1Posted 11/17/2012 11:12:36 PM
DarkContractor posted...
I thought, correct me if I'm mistaken, that the Rapture, assuming it will happen (I believe so), cannot happen until everyone on Earth has heard of Christ (not accepted, but heard of)


How would that happen? How about babies being born right this second? People with mental illnesses that can't even comprehend complex thoughts? Those that are in comas?
---
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/AuraBlaze/Untitled-2.png
You don't understand because there is nothing to understand. It's nonsense. -Bahamut
#42DarkContractorPosted 11/18/2012 5:53:18 AM
there's actually a verse somewhere in OT that addresses people who have disabilities preventing them from worshiping, but I cannot for the life of me remember what it is. If I do remember, I'll tell you. It pretty much says if you have a disability, whatever parts of a Christian lifestyle that disability would prevent you from partaking in, you don't have to worry about.
---
GameFAQs Christianity General, your GF home for Bible studies, testimonies, and worship: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/400-current-events/64458924
#43JonWood007Posted 11/18/2012 10:45:03 AM
How would that happen? How about babies being born right this second? People with mental illnesses that can't even comprehend complex thoughts? Those that are in comas?


I don't recall any Bible verses that suggest this, but a lot of Christians believe that those people cannot be held accountable.

there's actually a verse somewhere in OT that addresses people who have disabilities preventing them from worshiping, but I cannot for the life of me remember what it is. If I do remember, I'll tell you. It pretty much says if you have a disability, whatever parts of a Christian lifestyle that disability would prevent you from partaking in, you don't have to worry about.


I dont remember Bible verses that suggest that....unless you're reinterpreting some of the OT codes regarding worship.
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 5850 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768
#44OrangeWizardPosted 11/18/2012 11:36:33 AM
From: DarkContractor | #029
there's actually a verse somewhere in OT that addresses people who have disabilities preventing them from worshiping



I only remember that those who had crushed testicles were unfit to serve as priests.
That's all.
---
Hi, I'm Larry the shivering chipmunk
Brr, I'm cold, I need a sweater.
#45Burning_WolfXPosted 11/18/2012 11:45:29 AM
Suibom, I am going to do my best to respond to your overall argument, though I will note that SirThinkALot has already done an excellent job of explaining many of the Scriptures that Rapturists try to contort to support their opinions.

Suibom posted...
2. Paul spoke of it in his teachings on the Resurrection.
- The Lord will descend with a trumpet (the last trumpet as 1 Corinthians 15:52 states)
- The dead in Christ will rise (Paul also taught this in 1 Corinthians 15, concerning our mortal bodies putting on immortality at the sounding of the trumpet)
- All the family will be caught up together in the clouds

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. . . . And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. . .Therefore comfort one another with these words." (I Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV)

(I Corinthians 15:50-54 NKJV)


The Resurrection mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 refers to the Final (or second) Resurrection Revelations, long after the Tribulation is over.

Revelations 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Note that even in the case of the first Resurrection, there is no persecution or suffering going on. Satan's rebellion mentioned in the next section fails to have any effect.

So even if there is any sort of Rapture, it will not be before or during the Tribulation, but after. And rather from being spared any punishment, NOT ONLY will every person endure the fulness of the Tribulation until they die or the Tribulation ends, but the living will be "raptured" to the Throne of Judgment. afterwards. This is consistent with the constant exhortation in the Bible to persevere until the end, that we may receive the crown of life. If we will be raptured, then there is no need to persevere. Therefore, due to the oft-repeated exhortation of Christ and of Paul, I am led to reject the Rapture as contradictory to the message of the Bible.

This is consistent with the fact that the doctrine of the Rapture was first introduced in the 1600's, and was only fully developed in the 1800's by Edward Irving. I see no reason to believe an invented doctrine unheard of in the first centuries of Christianity.

1 Thessalonians makes this clear. In fact, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is not even primarily concerned with any sort of Rapture; rather, it is saying that the dead will be raised up, and we will be reunited with them at Judgment. 1 Thessalonians is saying that the dead are not lost, but they will precede us in going to God. We will be "raptured" to God only after the Resurrection, at Judgment. And even then, even if we do leave the earth, it will not be permanent, but only for the duration of Judgment. Afterwards, we will return to live on the renewed Earth.
---
Sometimes I'd like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it. But Im afraid He'd ask me the same thing.
#46SuibomPosted 11/18/2012 11:59:01 AM
Why did you purposely cut out the mentioning of the trumpet, the last trumpet?

Because it ruins your argument, that's why. You really want to approach forming sound doctrine in that manner?

There is one place in the whole of Scripture where a last trumpet is sounded: in Revelation right before the harvest of the earth is reaped.

If you're going to omit those things in order to prove your point, I don't believe I want to discuss this with you.

And I don't care when they got the Rapture right. If our forefathers missed it for that long, so be it. They missed it. Their opinion doesn't equal or override plain Scripture. They don't get any special right to have any private interpretation that can't be argued with.
---
"Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body." Hebrews 13:3 ESV
#47SuibomPosted 11/18/2012 12:12:05 PM
And to say things like "if there is a Rapture..." makes me think you're either guessing, making up your beliefs, or just don't know enough to warrant entering into a debate about them.

How can you think to defend doctrine you're not sure about?

If you came asking questions and looking to learn, that would be one thing, but to attack my position when you're admittedly not even sure of your own is foolish.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't want to debate end- times doctrine with you.
---
"Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body." Hebrews 13:3 ESV
#48Burning_WolfXPosted 11/18/2012 1:23:21 PM
Suibom posted...
Why did you purposely cut out the mentioning of the trumpet, the last trumpet?

Because it ruins your argument, that's why. You really want to approach forming sound doctrine in that manner?

There is one place in the whole of Scripture where a last trumpet is sounded: in Revelation right before the harvest of the earth is reaped.

If you're going to omit those things in order to prove your point, I don't believe I want to discuss this with you.

And I don't care when they got the Rapture right. If our forefathers missed it for that long, so be it. They missed it. Their opinion doesn't equal or override plain Scripture. They don't get any special right to have any private interpretation that can't be argued with.


First off, I still had points I wanted to make, so you'll excuse me if I snipped out some Scripture that has already been laid out for all to see so I could keep myself within the character limit. Now if I had been the one to originally post it, and if I had purposely cut out that verse, then you MIGHT have a point. But if I cut out Scripture that's already out in the open to make room for making my own point in response to your interpretation, you think it's me trying to avoid the points and evidences plainly visible to me and everyone else?

Further, the last trumpet precedes the Resurrection, so by saying that we'll be brought to God after the Resurrection assumes that we'll be brought to God after the final trumpet. It doesn't mess up the chronology. Revelations makes it clear that we will be brought before God AFTER the Resurrection, AFTER the final trumpet, AFTER the Tribulation.

It hardly ruins my argument, and has no significance.

Suibom posted...
And to say things like "if there is a Rapture..." makes me think you're either guessing, making up your beliefs, or just don't know enough to warrant entering into a debate about them.

How can you think to defend doctrine you're not sure about?

Oh, I'm sure about it. What I did is called working with someone else's assumptions to disprove their conclusions.

If you came asking questions and looking to learn, that would be one thing, but to attack my position when you're admittedly not even sure of your own is foolish.

Where did I admit that I was unsure?

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't want to debate end- times doctrine with you.

That doesn't bode well for you. If you knew you were right, you would smack down my arguments and refute the hell out of them, then you could go on your merry way, having corrected a fellow Christian of his error. The fact that you refuse to do this is quite telling.
---
Sometimes I'd like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it. But Im afraid He'd ask me the same thing.
#49SuibomPosted 11/18/2012 1:38:06 PM
You said in your very first post that the Orthodox church never taught the rapture. You said that it was a made up doctrine of the 1600's. And today you're saying that it will happen after the tribulation.

Yes, you are unsure. Yes, you are making this up as you go. No, I don't debate with people unsure of their position as they tend to make things up as they go rather than concede points.

OW does this. You're doing this. I'm not going to discuss this with you.
---
"Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body." Hebrews 13:3 ESV
#50SuibomPosted 11/18/2012 1:55:22 PM
What's sad is that you're so close to the truth. We only vary by a few events. You believe our rapture happens after the tribulation, when really it happens just before the wrath of God is poured out. Jesus, Paul, and John all say this. You believe we go through that judgment, but Scripture says we're not appointed for His wrath.

I still like you, love you as a brother in Christ, but you're not in a position to teach when you are unsure of the subject.
---
"Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body." Hebrews 13:3 ESV