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The lie too big for creationists

#1Faust_8Posted 11/19/2012 1:32:48 AM
We've seen creationists quote mine, make things up, straight up lie about results, propagate hoaxes, tell half-truths, omit any foreign data, and misrepresent the truth. They are not above fudging anything they want to get people to think like them.

But...we and presumably they know what makes evolution falsifiable. If we found a modern-day creature in rock prehistoric rock among dinosaurs or something, that one piece of evidence would throw the entire theory into a downward spiral. There is simply no way that can happen if evolution is true. No ifs ands or buts. A rabbit skeleton among dinosaurs equals evolution is wrong.

So...why don't they fake it?

Why don't they bury something in old rock for us to find? They're not above any other manipulating and corruption. Why not do this and claim their Nobel Prize?

Because they know the science works.

They know if they did that we'd know immediately it was fake. We could date the bones and know they were placed there. We could test the DNA. We could do all sorts of things. They know something like this could never work.

And if you know the science works you should really think about what that means.
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The supernatural says that if you act a certain way you might avoid suffering. But reality says you came from the stars...
#2CdrRoguePosted 11/19/2012 2:18:16 AM
It does make me wonder, the lying and fabrication of quotes and facts to try and support their claims. If they truly, genuinely believed what they say they do, why would they feel the need to lie to people? It screams of scam.
#3ThuggernautzPosted 11/19/2012 8:28:58 AM
Evidence for evolution has gone so far beyond the fossil record now, though. The fossil record is now considered inferior evidence (due to the random and very low probability of proper fossilization). Molecular phylogenetics is even stronger, more modern technique which hands down supports everything we've been saying. But considering how far behind creationists are on base level science, I don't expect them to formulate a response to that technique for at least a hundred years.
#4kozlo100Posted 11/19/2012 10:55:16 AM(edited)
I think this is getting into the trouble with treating groups as a monolithic block.

There certainly are some creationists willing to flat out lie in order to support their position, but I suspect the number of people in that group that also have the requisite skill to fake a fossil that would even pass visual inspection by a layman is rather low. Then among that group I think the number that understands the theory well enough to know what kind of fake would invalidate the theory is even lower.

I think most creationists don't know or don't care about the science, and they don't try intentionally try to lie or be dishonest. They're just working with such a different data set, and such different basic assumptions, that it seems like they must be. In other words, I think most creationists wouldn't try to plant a fossil because they don't think they need to.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#5Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 11/19/2012 12:43:31 PM
True, this is more aimed at the creationists you see on TV like Hovind and Cameron, that are actively trying to keep people from accepting evolution.
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The supernatural says that if you act a certain way you might avoid suffering. But reality says you came from the stars...
#6OrangeWizardPosted 11/19/2012 6:05:42 PM
And you believe that they are knowingly lying about it?
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Hi, I'm Larry the shivering chipmunk
Brr, I'm cold, I need a sweater.
#7JamesB0ndOO7Posted 11/19/2012 6:21:56 PM
From: OrangeWizard | #006
And you believe that they are knowingly lying about it?


People that have something to gain like Hovind and Cameron? Most certainly.
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There's no shame in being ashamed of yourself ~TheGeneralPublic
I love plenty of men. ~the hedonist
#8Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 11/19/2012 8:00:52 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
And you believe that they are knowingly lying about it?


The list of things they've lied about is way too long.

Granted sometimes it's hard to figure out if they're really that ignorant or lying on purpose, but with some things you just KNOW that they must not actually believe what they're spewing.

Or if they're not lying they're just regurgitating some byte of info they found from someone who did lie, like if they spread a quote mine. But that means they're still guilty of being intellectually lazy and not checking a single damn fact. The "this seems to support my position, I'll just take it at face value and spread it around!" method isn't quite lying but it's barely better.

Basically, they've said so many things that mean they're either colossally stupid or liars...and that's a lose-lose if I ever saw one.
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The supernatural says that if you act a certain way you might avoid suffering. But reality says you came from the stars...
#9OrangeWizardPosted 11/19/2012 8:07:07 PM
From: Faust_8 | #008
but with some things you just KNOW that they must not actually believe what they're spewing.


Like how some people just KNOW there's a God, or....?
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Hi, I'm Larry the shivering chipmunk
Brr, I'm cold, I need a sweater.
#10kozlo100Posted 11/19/2012 8:25:18 PM
I'm not going to accuse any specific celebrity on the issue, but the thing of it is that there are items of information that circulate on the topic that just plain can't be arrived at save through dishonesty. Citing events that never happened, quoting things people never said, things of that nature.

For that to happen, somebody had to have intentionally lied. That's not saying much though. If you look in the right spots, you'll see that there are liars on pretty much every side of every argument. Seems a quirk of human nature that some of us will make stuff up to win arguments, and others of us will repeat that lie without bothering to check if it was true in the first place.

One of my favorite examples is carrots and eyesight. You poll folks on the street, and most people will tell you it's commonly known that carrots are good for your eyes. I thought so for all of my childhood and at least half my adult life. It's just one of those things that's known.

Thing is, it's not true, it's a deliberate lie. One spread for a decently good reason, but a lie none the less, and it worked its way into common consensus of truth, so much so that you'll find fairly scientific sounding explanations of how it works, even though none of it is true.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick