This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

Eucharist Miracle - in a dropped communion heart tissue appeared

#1LastManStandingPosted 11/19/2012 12:01:56 PM
Four years ago during the Liturgy of the Mass in the eastern Polish town of Sokolka, a consecrated host was accidentally dropped on the floor by the priest who was distributing Holy Communion to the faithful. The consecrated host was then carefully placed in water in order to allow it to dissolve. However, several days later a nun discovered that the host remained undissolved. On her further inspection of the consecrated host, she noticed a distinctive red mark on it.
According to an Associated Press report, "Two medical doctors determined that the spot was heart muscle tissue, church officials have said."


http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=43101

I can also tell you that they discovered a compound under microscope that does not exist on Earth outside that miracle.

How much more proof do you need? Miracles are already happening during adoration to Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.
---
Divine Mercy - God Loves you
You will know them by their fruits says the Lord
#2LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 11/19/2012 12:04:45 PM
Image of Christ Heart Tissue from Holy Communion which is His Body
http://gosc.pl/files/12/04/20/917092_DSC00741_34.jpg
---
Divine Mercy - God Loves you
You will know them by their fruits says the Lord
#3LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 11/19/2012 12:31:40 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#4JonWood007Posted 11/19/2012 1:21:13 PM(edited)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6461051/Miracle-as-communion-wafer-becomes-heart-tissue.html

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2011/10/the-problem-of-miracles/

But let's say it was somehow true (since a lot of debunkers don't have strong arguments against this particular miracle admittedly and it seems to have gotten positive press coverage). What does that tell us? Does that suddenly make all of the evidence against your worldview go away? Does it suddenly make parts of the Bible people flat out disbelieve for good reason true? Even your own church has failed to rule on this supposed miracle (local officials have claimed it to be a miracle, the vatican is silent). Even if it were heart tissue, isn't there the possibility that it got there through some sort of natural means?

But really, let's at least start with "what conclusions can we draw from this?"
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 5850 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768
#5LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 11/19/2012 1:44:27 PM
JonWood007 posted...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6461051/Miracle-as-communion-wafer-becomes-heart-tissue.html

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2011/10/the-problem-of-miracles/

But let's say it was somehow true (since a lot of debunkers don't have strong arguments against this particular miracle admittedly and it seems to have gotten positive press coverage). What does that tell us? Does that suddenly make all of the evidence against your worldview go away? Does it suddenly make parts of the Bible people flat out disbelieve for good reason true? Even your own church has failed to rule on this supposed miracle (local officials have claimed it to be a miracle, the vatican is silent). Even if it were heart tissue, isn't there the possibility that it got there through some sort of natural means?

But really, let's at least start with "what conclusions can we draw from this?"


For none believers conversion is possible. This is the 133 Eucharist miracle. What else Christ has to do so you will believe????
---
Divine Mercy - God Loves you
You will know them by their fruits says the Lord
#6JonWood007Posted 11/19/2012 2:12:45 PM(edited)
I just don't know how a communion wafer turning into heart tissue justifies the entire worldview that 6000 years ago, God made the heavens and the earth, that he made some dude and a chick from the dude's rib, that they disobeyed God by eating a piece of magical fruit that a talking snake told them to, that eventually God got ticked off, flooded the earth, restarted anew, made a covenant with some guy who tried to kill his own son at God's command, that God rescued hundreds fo thousands of people from egypt, gave them a kingdom in which he made these extremely backwards laws that thery must follow or die, and later that they must follow or be tortured for all eternity, that in order to avoid punishment we must stop breaking these extremely archaic laws and believe that God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself, that he rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, and promised to return one day, and that we eat pieces of bread/wafers and drink wine to symbolize his body and blood (or, in your case, literally are his body and blood).

I'm sorry, I'm just not getting all of that out of "communion wafer turned to heart tissue". A single miracle does not justify an entire worldview. When I lost my faith, it was not one thing that deconverted me, but an entire, systemic failure of the whole worldview on just about every level, and one miracle is not going to bring me back.

Even then, this miracle, upon research, remains unverified and controversial.

So really, what I'm asking is what conclusions am I supposed to logically draw from your miracle, assuming it is true? I know you're trying to say that it really is the body of Christ, but how does this verify the entire worldview? It doesn't make the contradictions and absurdities within the worldview suddenly go away.

Don't get me wrong, if it happened, it's a point in your favor...but such miracles upon investigation are controversial at best, and flat out frauds at worst. Not only that, but even though it's a point in your favor, the general score is still like 100-1.
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 5850 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768
#7LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 11/19/2012 2:24:37 PM
Same book Holy Bible.
Look what you saying, you start believing in Christ, now I want proof that Adam and Eve existed...
---
Divine Mercy - God Loves you
You will know them by their fruits says the Lord
#8Lord_IchmaelPosted 11/19/2012 2:27:52 PM
Can we get DNA samples from this alleged heart tissue?

... I'm basically a yes-man to Jon. Not that I don't think for myself, I just happen to agree.
#9LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 11/19/2012 2:31:40 PM
The two doctors in the test were chosen as follows, one knew where it came from, the other doctor did not know where it came from. Both concluded the same thing, it's a heart tissue.
Miracles of healing already been happening...
---
Divine Mercy - God Loves you
You will know them by their fruits says the Lord
#10JonWood007Posted 11/19/2012 2:34:03 PM(edited)
^^What I'm saying if even if your miracle is true, it doesn't really justify the entire worldview (and that's a big if). Depending on who you ask, some people wouldnt even say this would lead to God or Christ, that we dont know what caused it, and that we can't draw any conclusions from it. This miracle does not validate the whole Bible (or debatably, not any of it), and it does not give credibility to your worldview. Absurdities and contradictions remain. If this were Christ, what did Christ save us from? Our disobedience to the law? What law? OT Jewish law as people would claim? Why should we even assume it's God's law to begin with when it's so crazy and absurd by modern standards? If it's more the golden rules....whose interpretations?

Your miracle would lead to more questions than answers, since it goes against the grain of everything else. And that's even if it's truly verified beyond doubt, which it has not.

The two doctors in the test were chosen as follows, one knew where it came from, the other doctor did not know where it came from. Both concluded the same thing, it's a heart tissue.
Miracles of healing already been happening...


1) Some doctors disagree. Read my articles. Some people have serious disagreements over the methods used to draw these conclusions. Some claim it's bacteria.

2) If it is heart tissue, can we prove beyond a doubt the wafer actually transformed into it? Can we establish a chain of custody to prove it?
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 5850 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768