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BSF study for tonight: God blesses those who exemplify faith in him.

#21JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 3:37:04 PM
Nope. We already discussed this over PM.

The Bible is an anthology of works written over the course of over a thousand years. I really challenge you to listen to some of the lectures of the yale course, read along in your Bible, see what they're talking about. It really astounds me how many Christians don't even read their own book for what it is. You must read the individual pieces within their respective contexts to understand what it's saying. Christians get it wrong in their assumption that the Bible is a single book with an overarching theme. It leads to all kinds of misinterpretations. Not to mention common translations like KJV and NIV are full of mistranslations. Like the virgin thing in Isaiah 7:14....that's a greek mistranslation, it really said young woman in Hebrew.

The writers of Genesis did not intend to predict Jesus...those contexts did not arise for hundreds of years. You need to read the Bible for what it is. An anthology of works written over a long period of time.
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#22Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 3:50:16 PM
I am. and i do. I would question whether i read the bible more than anyone on all of gamefaqs. I read the entire new testament atleast 2 or 3 times. I read a little over half of the old testament. Which parts do you believe i am not getting? I read it for EXACTLY what it is.
#23JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 4:21:15 PM
You do not understand the historical contexts that make the Bible exactly what it is. I've read both the OT and NT at least once, as well as reading bits and pieces every now and then. It's easy to read the Bible within the confines of the faith, but it does not occur to you that the lens you are using it in reading is wrong. Once again, I encourage you to at least listen to the lectures of the yale course in conjunction with your Bible reading. Ideally, buying the textbooks helps (remember, I took full fledged courses...you're just getting a taste if you listen lecture only), but not necessarily practical since books are expensive. So I'd listen to the lectures. What you learn in church, what you learn from faith contexts is not really the real story. You need to learn how to read the Bible anew. Approach it from an outsiders perspective, a critical perspective. Insider perspectives often whitewash the message.
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#24Dathrowed1Posted 11/20/2012 4:47:31 PM
JonWood007 posted...
Again, I dont care what Isaiah and Esther say. They were different books written in different time periods.

It was not looking at the Jews. Please educate yourself, listen to the yale course's lecture on Daniel. It was babylon, Medes, Persia, Greece. It was written in greek times. They thought the messiah or overthrow of the greeks by God was imminent. They were under intense persecution at the time. They werent looking 150 years into the future at a roman empire that did not rise yet. It's silly to think a group that is experiencing such persecution and deliverance would be talking hundreds of years from then.

http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145/lecture-23

Some of my info was also taken from a course I took at my local college IRL, which basically had the same interpretation.

Once again, you can't look at "the Bible" as a single book. IT'S NOT. And Daniel is pretty well separated from the rest.


You are talking to someone who believes that the bible has a prophetic element. Someone who has heard of the liberal interpretation of it (that's what it is it has been known as). Someone who believes the bible is in harmony with itself. Someone who has read the Hebrew Aramaic and Greek scriptures. Someone who's not going to just believe something because someone told him, especially when he's knows they are wrong (the leopard best represents Greece, ferrium symbolism is Rome).

What I am saying here is that you need to readjust to your audience. It's fine and dandy if you are talking to people who already believe like you and are looking for a confirmation bias, but that is not what is happening here. You need to do more than just saying what you are saying is fact, because your opponents don't have a reason to see why you are a credible source by yourself
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#25Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 4:48:01 PM
Jon wood, your words are only the words of a doubter. You speak as if the bible has a lot of suspect points that need to be constantly investigated like a forensics crime or something. Do you realize how many bible schools and scholars there are? Liberty university just off the top of myhead. There are people who have been all over the middle east and pin pointed every exact city in the bible (with old ancient unused names) and figure out all the chronology of the jews and such. Do you seriously think that an atheist can tell me how and what the truth is of the bible? You are terribly naive do believe these people 100%. You assume that everyone who believes in the bible is not a critic, and does not think critically about the material in the bible. Both are wrong. I questioned christianity over many years, but after the miracles i stopped questioning. I no longer needed to question.

All of this brings me to an amazing point. I was actually thinking about this earlier today on my way home from work. Who ever thought that the only way to test the bible was through archaeology and physical history? The bible is a historical document because of its many famous rulers history in it (Nebuchadnezzar, Persian king Cyrus, etc.). But are we saved by history or archaeology? Absolutely not! Everytime i come across this i look at the life of Jesus. THe most perfect example of a human life anyone can come upon. Did he argue dates and periods of the scripture (all of the old testament was in place during his lifespan)? No he didnt! Every crowd he came to he showed love, he performed miracles, and he gave godly answers to serious questions. Thats all we need in life!

Short answer- listening to a non beliver tell me about his perceived history of my basis for beliefs is a waste of time, jon wood. I might watch the video eventually. But after seeing the atheist 1.1.1. videos on youtube, which did not impress me with the gross mound of inaccuracies, im not in a rush to watch more.
#26JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 5:12:58 PM
To be frank, YES, the Bible needs to be investigated thoroughly. Especially when the claims it makes. Almost like a forensic investigation. Yes. The same applies to every holy book, or every extraordinary claim. THis is how you come to knowledge. Investigating things closely. I recognize there are conservative scholars...but the Liberty kind....eh...they're a joke. Mainstream scholars don't take those guys seriously. I mean, is liberty even an accredited institution? Not to my knowledge. From what I can see looking at their website they're only accreditted at a couple of things.

Yes, I know there are people who go over to the middle east to investigate the Bible and ancient cities, but I'm sure many of them would flat out disagree with you. Take Bart Ehrman for instance, who is a leading NT scholar who lost his faith in investigating the Bible. I'm a lot like him. You seem to forget I'm not just an atheist. I'm a former believer. And I lost my faith for reasons, and a lot of those reasons have to do with my studies of the Bible and its application to life. I told you numerous times over PM that about 8 years ago, I used to think like you, but now I think like me. And there are reasons for that. And as far as I'm concerned, it would behoove you to listen to what I have to say. You call me naive, but you are naive. I'm not saying people within the faith never think critically, but they are in a bubble. And this bubble hampers their abilities to find out the truth. it's a lot like the GOP with their recent loss. They were so in a bubble they did not realize that they were going to lose (and still dont understand why they lost). Christianity is in a similar kind of bubble. You need to learn how to read the Bible anew. That's all I'm gonna say. You may have gone down a similar path as I did, but you never flat out lost your faith. You came to the brink, but never went over the line. And because of this, you cannot understand me.

Just because famous rulers are in the Bible does not make it a historical document. Read Sennacherib's prism and compare it to the account of Hezekiah in the Bible. Two. Different. Stories. The Bible has Sennacherib running off with a tail in between his legs after losing hundreds of thousands of troops, his account has him sieging jerusalem into submission and then making him a tributary ruler. THe Bible tells a story of victory, but Sennacherib tells a story of submission. And just because real places are in the Bible, does that make it true? Abraham Lincoln really existed...did he hunt vampires? Spiderman takes place in new york...does he exist?

The reason I place so much emphasis on history and archaeology is the story you get within the context is much different than the faith based context you use. So much different. You assume the Bible is a single work, inspired by God. I see it as a judeo-christian anthology of religious works. Each work has its own message. These messages are lost within the christian context many people including yourself read the Bible from. My own conclusions may be that God doesnt exist, and the Bible is just mythology, but at the same time, this is not necessarily what those courses are saying. many Christians take these Bible courses, even if the perspective is so much different. And I still believed in the Bible and used it for guidance for years after learning it in this way. As you know, my deconversion is a bit more complex than that.

never stop questioning. It is only by questioning we know things. The second we stop questioning, we stop learning.

As for jesus. He did a lot of good, but at the same time, he was very vitriolic in criticizing others. He really ripped the pharisees and the like, turned over money changers temples, and stirred up trouble with the romans (which is why he was crucified). He ripped people worse than I rip people at times.
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#27Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 5:26:42 PM
Yes and i asked the questions and i have the answers, jon wood. Praise Jesus i have the answers in his great Word! Whoooo! Yeah! Crazy for christ baby!
#28Dathrowed1Posted 11/20/2012 6:09:27 PM
Sennacherib's account has too many plot holes and the Assyrians didn't record losses. We went over that. You say place emphasis on history and archaeology, but you parade these guesses as if they are facts (even when the holes are pointed out to you)
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#29Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 6:34:58 PM
Dathrowed1 posted...
Sennacherib's account has too many plot holes and the Assyrians didn't record losses. We went over that. You say place emphasis on history and archaeology, but you parade these guesses as if they are facts (even when the holes are pointed out to you)


(in yoda accent) i sense a disturbance in the force! Who is this guy?
#30JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 7:17:48 PM
So we should just trust the Bible then? ignore all contradicting evidence and just believe? Sorry, that's not how I roll.

Yes, Sennacherib may have been biased, but who is to say the Bible isn't? I actually trust sennacherib's account over the Bible's for 2 reasons: 1) it doesn't rely on supernatural explanations in its account and 2) Assyria is so much bigger than Judah was. It's not surprising for Assyria to just dominate Judah. The Bible's account relies on the fact that God smote hundreds of thousands of people in order to turn it to victory. Sennacherib's account relies on the fact that they pwnt Hezekiah like everyone else. Sennacherib's account is more plausible by far, even if he were biased.
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