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The meteoric rise of Brazil.

#11kozlo100Posted 11/20/2012 2:41:42 PM
You didn't say anything about quality of life, you mentioned booming economies. China's is the one booming the quickest right now.
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#12anavriNPosted 11/20/2012 2:42:33 PM
Just curious.. did any of you guys actually read any of the article? Or is it just random replies based on false logic and here-say.

You're entire point boils down to the idea that there is a causal connection between the correlation of X (Brasil is getting richer) and Y (Brasil is religious). There are obvious counter-examples to this.
And as already mentioned, there are great gaps between social classes in Brasil as well, which, among other things, is reflected by its relatively high rates of childhood and motherhood fatality.
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#13Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 3:05:50 PM
Oh btw, not to mention that chinas rise in christianity is just as meteoric if not more so than brazil. China has more christians than america has people. Look it up.
#14Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 3:08:36 PM
anavriN posted...
Just curious.. did any of you guys actually read any of the article? Or is it just random replies based on false logic and here-say.

You're entire point boils down to the idea that there is a causal connection between the correlation of X (Brasil is getting richer) and Y (Brasil is religious). There are obvious counter-examples to this.
And as already mentioned, there are great gaps between social classes in Brasil as well, which, among other things, is reflected by its relatively high rates of childhood and motherhood fatality.


-Not really. All the examples given were horrible failures as i pointed out. The u.s. is still #1 in both secionts (wealth and quality of life) and we used to be the most christian country (relgious is meaningless abstract term. im speaking strictly christian). Now we are obviously falling away from our faith and look where that is getting us? The chinese example only helps my point because as chinese communist restrictions fade away christianity rises even faster. The middle east in general is pretty poor, so that was a dumb point off the get go. Is there a single middle eastern first world nation? Im just curious. Correct me if im wrong.
#15JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 3:18:09 PM(edited)
Polish_Crusader posted...
kozlo100 posted...
With China's economic growth being the fastest in the world, one wonders which of their policies God is blessing them for


-This is the largest misconception about china. China has over 300 million people without access to a basic hospital or healthcare. Look it up. They also have over 400 million people that make less than 2.50 per day. A huge portion of their population is below the poverty line and are substinence farmers. I dont even have all the numbers. The chinese govt is incredibly rich. But the great majority of the chinese people (about 800 million) are incredibly poor.

Read the book "Empire of Lies". Brilliant read written by a frenchman. So you cant say its U.S. hate speech.


China has crappy wealth distribution, yes, but it is one of the fastest growing economies in the world. Our own policies are somewhat bad in that area too. Trickle down economics created a lot of wealth, but many people never saw it.

The size of the economy and wealth distrubution are two different things.

-Not really. All the examples given were horrible failures as i pointed out. The u.s. is still #1 in both secionts (wealth and quality of life) and we used to be the most christian country (relgious is meaningless abstract term. im speaking strictly christian). Now we are obviously falling away from our faith and look where that is getting us? The chinese example only helps my point because as chinese communist restrictions fade away christianity rises even faster. The middle east in general is pretty poor, so that was a dumb point off the get go. Is there a single middle eastern first world nation? Im just curious. Correct me if im wrong.


UAE isn't in bad shape. Idk if it classifies as first world though.

Middle East has a lot of wealth actually (mainly from oil), but once again, the problem is the wealth distribution. You got a lot of rich people in the middle east, but then the vast majority are poor. It's like having a country full of Bill Gateses and homeless guys.

Christianity per se is not what is helping countries. Islam is going through its dark ages yes, but so did Christianity. Christianity went through really bad dark ages full of plagues, witch burnings, and oppression. What we're seeing in CHina is they're remaining statist, but are becoming more communist in name only. Capitalism in some state approved forms is coming to china. They're producing things, and selling them. That's why china is rising.

Point is, religion does not directly correlate with prosperity. Id say western values in general correlate with prosperity. There are rational, natural explanations for why the world is in the shape it's in. It's not spiritual. Lots of Christian countries in Africa and they're very poor.
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#16Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 3:15:37 PM
That does not make sense, jon wood. How can you judge the wealth of a nation without judging how many people have it? Thats like saying a country has one billionaire making a lot of money so the country is getting really rich. A testament to a nations economy is the level at which the general population is rising, not a few people or businesses. This is why everyone wants to come to america from around the world. Because pretty much any joe schmo (like my grand parents from poland) can come here with noting but the clothes on their back, learn a few things, start a business and make a ton of money. In china this is not practically possible to the people that are there much less foreigners.


Short answer- the status of a nations "economy" and the financial and physical quality of life of the general population are DIRECTLY linked. Look it up if you think im wrong.
#17Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 3:17:46 PM
Jon wood you choose to not focus on the spiritual side and only on the side you want to see. Theres nothing i can say because you refuse to look at the facts.. We get in this circle all the time...
#18Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 3:23:42 PM
I'll make this easier. Cuz im not trying to sound negative.

Compare the beginning of the rise of christianity in china (around mid 90's) with the rise of its economy. Do some basic internet searches on the amount of churches in china. Your jaw would drop.

I know the official from BSF told us that the beijing class had 2 classes and they filled up completely in a few days. Ours in austin has been open from over 2 months now and we havent come close to filling up.

Just look at the christian statistics, jon. Just LOOK!
#19JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 3:28:32 PM
There's the entire wealth of an entire country (say, GDP), and there's the average income. They measure two different things. You can have very rich countries but very poor citizens. India and China are like this. Heck, a lot fo Americans are exploiting cheap labor in China, which is the major reason they're prospering.

We're also a country that's becoming very lopsided. It's not because of a loss of faith, it's our economic policies. We're entering a post industrial era, for one, and for two, reaganomics and "trickle down" economics doesn't work. We live in an economy in which the rich are doing very well and the rest of us suffer. A society in which individual people, or corporations have more wealth than entire countries, but people go without health insurance. Look at the owner of Papa Johns. He lives in a castle, yet is cutting hours and raising his prices in order to skimp on peoples' health insurance. Since the 70s, the rich have been getting richer and the poor have been getting poorer. And in this time, the people with these bad policies were often the most vocal on religion. The people who promoted trickle down were also the ones who want to impose restrictions on gay marriage and abortion.

And while we're at it, let's look at Europe. Particularly western Europe (eastern europe's in a different boat because they're still recovering from communism). Look at countries like France, Norway, Sweden. Income is much more evenly distrubuted, they got better labor laws, more vacation time, health care systems that work. And guess, what, these are some of the most secular and atheist countries in the world.

I don't look at things spiritually because there's no point. There are always natural explanations for things (or at least almost always). It's not that I refuse to look at facts, it's that you're promoting a biased agenda that is light on the facts. Christianity does not always equal prosperity. If it did, the dark ages would be the best time in human history...but they're not...that's why they were called the dark ages.
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#20JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 3:31:06 PM
Polish_Crusader posted...
I'll make this easier. Cuz im not trying to sound negative.

Compare the beginning of the rise of christianity in china (around mid 90's) with the rise of its economy. Do some basic internet searches on the amount of churches in china. Your jaw would drop.

I know the official from BSF told us that the beijing class had 2 classes and they filled up completely in a few days. Ours in austin has been open from over 2 months now and we havent come close to filling up.

Just look at the christian statistics, jon. Just LOOK!


Challenge accepted. First link I looked at says you got it backwards. Religion is exploding because of the economy. Correlation doesnt mean causation, and you're getting the causation backwards, according to sociologists.

https://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2008a/080516YangReligion.html
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