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The meteoric rise of Brazil.

#21Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 4:48:40 PM
that article said religious growth. not christian growth. Find one just for christianity.
#22JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 5:41:47 PM
Ok, I looked it up more. Fair enough, some people do see a link between Christianity and the prosperity. However, I will like to mention that the sources i found on the matter that were reliable (like PBS) cited that there are natural reasons for this. The morality that surrounds Christianity makes people more honest in general and gives them a better work ethic, which leads to more prosperity. once again, there is no supernatural reason behind this, it's a natural thing. And even then, it's not necessarily good to generalize these results, since there are honest atheists and dishonest christians.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/china_705/interview/xiao.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10942954

This is not to say that Christianity will make everyone prosper overall. The sources I found cited that the Chinese government is still in charge, and would not let Christianity run amok where they lose their power. That being said, I don't expect there to be a lot of social change. And as I mentioned, even in America, Christianity is not necessarily making us prosperous. Here, many Christians ignore social justice issues to focus on silly social issues. They don't listen to Jesus on the rich but then focus on silly issues. They try to serve both God and money. I'd argue at this point, in our own situation, Christianity is becoming harmful and holding us back.

While I will admit, yes, there is a link between Christianity and the Chinese economy, I will say it's not good to generalize these results for that reason, as well as others. Christianity has held social progress back many times in Europe and America. It held back scientific progress in terms of heliocentricism and evolution. And it's held back things socially with the whole divine right doctrine about God putting the rulers over us we have over us. So Christianity can be harmful as well as helpful.

And once again, as I mentioned above, I don't expect this to lead to real social change in China. Christianity may influence people to work harder and be more honest, but other than that, it's fallacious to assume that there is a solid link between Christianity and economic prosperity in a general sense...it's not generalizable, and it's by far not the only factor at work. I wouldn't make the great, generalizable claims that you do that, Christianity automatically equals prosperity. Sure, it may help, but it's not THE #1 deciding factor.
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#23Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 5:52:51 PM
"This is not to say that Christianity will make everyone prosper overall. The sources I found cited that the Chinese government is still in charge, and would not let Christianity run amok where they lose their power. That being said, I don't expect there to be a lot of social change. And as I mentioned, even in America, Christianity is not necessarily making us prosperous. Here, many Christians ignore social justice issues to focus on silly social issues. They don't listen to Jesus on the rich but then focus on silly issues. They try to serve both God and money. I'd argue at this point, in our own situation, Christianity is becoming harmful and holding us back."

-You are 100% correct. You could not have possibly pinned the tail on the donkey better! Which is why this country is in decline. Which is also why i gave up on our two party system and our politics in general. You just explained why our country is in moral, financial, and familial decline. Its amazing the truth that comes out of you, jon wood, and most atheists dont even know the causation and source of all of these things- greed, love of self, materialism, the father of all of these is Sin.
#24JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 6:14:17 PM
Atheists do realize this. This is why atheistic Europe and Scandinavia is so far ahead of us in social programs it's not even funny. Christianity does not have a monopoly on morality.
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#25Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 6:20:23 PM
JonWood007 posted...
Atheists do realize this. This is why atheistic Europe and Scandinavia is so far ahead of us in social programs it's not even funny. Christianity does not have a monopoly on morality.


-You think they are ahead of us? Do you realize how broke atheist europe is right now? Spain has like 25% unemployment. Portugal is broke. Italy is broke. England is broke as a joke their people are steaming mad that they cant have all their social programs. The biggest growing religion right now in europe is Islam. Christianity will be gone soon at the rate that it is at. (Western) Europe left god, so god left europe alone and look waht happened. Germany, Poland, and maybe romania are the only countrys that still have a solid christian believing population and the former two are doing alright financially compared to the others. I used to live in england. THey are so godless there, and they are all paying for it.
#26BetaSquadronPosted 11/20/2012 6:25:41 PM
Religion's more of a reaction to economic conditions rather than a driving force. Brazil is Christian because there's an incredible amount of poverty. Once they get wealthier, religiosity will decline. The poorest parts of the US are the most religious.
#27JonWood007Posted 11/20/2012 6:36:46 PM
Europe has more unemployment, yes, but they're ahead of us in some areas. We have our priorities wrong on healthcare and education. islam is taking off because of an increasing muslim population.
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#28anavriNPosted 11/20/2012 7:03:38 PM
-You think they are ahead of us? Do you realize how broke atheist europe is right now? Spain has like 25% unemployment. Portugal is broke. Italy is broke.

He mentioned Scandinavia in particular. Yes, a lot of the Mediterranean countries are in the gutter, but all in all, (West-)Europe has a strong economy, and above all, the highest standard of living in the world (just look at the HDI index, nearly all top-countries are European and nearly all European countries are in the top of the index).

Also, considering how you boasted about how everyone wants to go to the US for economic reasons, I don't think you want to talk about how broke some countries are. Say what you will about Europe, but at least we don't have a staggering $ 14,000,000,000,000, deficit.

(Western) Europe left god, so god left europe alone and look waht happened. Germany, Poland, and maybe romania are the only countrys that still have a solid christian believing population and the former two are doing alright financially compared to the others.

Have you ever been to Poland? A lot of people there go to other West-European countries to make a living.
And speaking as someone who lives in The Netherlands, we're doing more than fine here. We've all been hit by the economic crises, but your idea of countries being abandoned by God is absurd and contradicts all evidence.

You keep defending this cheap knock-off of the Weber thesis, implying that religiosity and prosperity go hand in hand, but there are dozens of counterexamples here: countries that are mainly Christian and dead-poor (much of sub-Saharan Africa), and countries that are secular and wealthy (Scandinavia and much of West-Europe).
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#29Lord_IchmaelPosted 11/20/2012 7:24:55 PM(edited)
As with most topics here I agree with everything Jon said, but want to add one more point: HOW does Christianity make economies better, and how does "turning away from God" makes economies worse? Does God magically make natural resources easier to get, make government economic policies turn out better, make more job openings and protect from recessions somehow, etc.? Belief that God, or Allah, or Zeus, or whatever other God is out there actively making things better for those who believe in Him is akin to believing in magic.
#30Polish_Crusader(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2012 7:33:35 PM
I have been to poland. I have relatives there. I am half polish by descent.

They are a second world country that is steadily growing after the devestating occupation of the evil russian forces. I could make several topics about the evils done to them by the russians. Religious evil, scientific evil, financial evil, health evil. It really is mind blowing how much destruction the soviet union caused culturally and physically in all of eastern europe. Entire towns in ukraine and poland were either seriously reduced of people or wiped out all together through kilings and forced starvation. But i dont want to go off topic.