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If God is omnipotent....

#41kts123Posted 11/26/2012 3:38:29 PM
I'm not clinging to the faith of my parents. I was an atheist for six years, up until about two years ago. Anyway, I can't prove freewill. You intuitively believe you have it, though, so save for some lofty intellectual musings your instinct already says it's real.

If Satan is fighting a fight that he has absolutely no chance to win ever, why hasn't he been defeated yet?


Tell me, how can God wave a magic wand, and -- without violating your personhood -- make you suddenly love him? If you want someone to love you, you're going to have the pursue them, and let them choose you of their own volition. Forcing love on someone is, really, just another form of rape.

And lets be clear. God is not throwing you to the wolves for disobeying him, nor is he this strict blind obedience obsessed God you paint him to be. You have disobeyed him since the day you were born, and you most definitely have not blindly obeyed him. You've questioned him, refused to follow his instructions, and even argued a case against his goodness in the counter-factual . And -- surprise! -- he hasn't struck you down. Instead, he's given you literally everything you have, right down to your body, your family, your stuff, your friends, everything. People throw themselves to the wolves when they disobey God.

This is God's "strict" command:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
- Matthew 22:36-40
#42OzymandiasIVPosted 11/26/2012 4:06:15 PM
I am so sick of the moderators on this site. I said something pretty tame and was moderated for being offensive, yet someone on another board said I must have been born with a chromosomal defect because of my taste in movies, and that was left alone.
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#43IamvegitoPosted 11/26/2012 4:07:03 PM
Because Satan isn't a physical being.
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#44JonWood007Posted 11/26/2012 4:09:12 PM
I'm not clinging to the faith of my parents. I was an atheist for six years, up until about two years ago. Anyway, I can't prove freewill. You intuitively believe you have it, though, so save for some lofty intellectual musings your instinct already says it's real.


Intuition does not mean it's true. I suspect free will is an illusion. It is limited at best, and nonexistent at worst. Our environment affects us.

And lets be clear. God is not throwing you to the wolves for disobeying him, nor is he this strict blind obedience obsessed God you paint him to be. You have disobeyed him since the day you were born, and you most definitely have not blindly obeyed him. You've questioned him, refused to follow his instructions, and even argued a case against his goodness in the counter-factual . And -- surprise! -- he hasn't struck you down. Instead, he's given you literally everything you have, right down to your body, your family, your stuff, your friends, everything. People throw themselves to the wolves when they disobey God.


Um...I'm gonna have to refer you to the story of Abraham if you really don't believe God requires blind obedience. Also, you seem to think questioning/criticizing it bad based on your response. Like, I'm not supposed to blindly obey. Guess what, in order to be moral you need to think about morality.

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” - Matthew 22:36-40


Fair enough, but I will argue that interpretation of said command can vary. Not to mention it still seems silly to expect people to go against their self interested instincts 100% of the time. I mean, God has to know we'll make mistakes. It's in our nature. Also, as I mentioned....interpretation. How do we go about loving our neighbor exactly? Are you arguing for a form of Kantian ethics? Or is a utilitarian approach better? How do you resolve moral dilemmas when they arise.

And as I mentioned earlier, why isn't any of this like, more clear. Jesus telling us to love our neighbors is a good thing, but why do you hold his words with the weight of the divine? How do you know he spoke for God? Such a rule is also not limited to Christianity, and many other cultures have the love thing. I guess what I'm asking is how do you know God exists, and then from there, what he thinks?
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#45ThuggernautzPosted 11/26/2012 4:33:02 PM
Silviiro posted...
Might as well throw my mostly irrelevant opinion in here.

Well that seems kind of nonsensical. You're starting out a logical argument with "if a being can defy logic." The mere concept of unlimited power is illogical. Everything has a limit, even if it is very close to infinity.


Does it? What's the last digit of Pi?
#46SilviiroPosted 11/26/2012 4:47:44 PM(edited)
Does it? What's the last digit of Pi?

Pi is the last digit of pi. It is a single symbol. In numeral form it is infinitely long, but the Universe does not rely on our notation. However if you model it in binary it is 1.

Note that something can be irrational mathematically while being extremely simple physically such as 1/3. With the proper instruments I could cut a pie into three equal pieces, but in decimal form it is 0.3 repeating infinitely.
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14
#47ThuggernautzPosted 11/26/2012 4:46:50 PM
Silviiro posted...
Does it? What's the last digit of Pi?

Pi is the last digit of pi. It is a single symbol. In numeral form it is infinitely long, but the Universe does not rely on our notation. However if you model it in binary it is 1.


Does a mathematical infinite not count as a lack of limitation? The problem with your statement is that you have to somehow find a theoretical limit to a vague enough concept as 'power' for God, which I suspect will be just as difficult as trying to find the last digit of 22/7. It might take, dare I say, an infinite amount of time.
#48kozlo100Posted 11/26/2012 5:14:03 PM(edited)
Thuggernautz posted...
Does a mathematical infinite not count as a lack of limitation?


It does kind of come down to that. There are infinities all over the place in mathematics.

The one I was going to go with is how many rational numbers exist between zero and one. Or to reword it to fit the question at hand: Is there a limit to the quantity of rational numbers between zero and one? That's not a matter of notation, the quantity actually is infinite.

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#49OrangeWizardPosted 11/26/2012 7:09:11 PM
From: OzymandiasIV | #024
You would boil down the entire point of that post to the problem of evil, wouldn't you?


Yes, I would.

Would you like to claim that it is something more than that?
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#50SilviiroPosted 11/26/2012 7:34:41 PM(edited)
Does a mathematical infinite not count as a lack of limitation?

Nothing ever truly reaches infinity. You can plug in infinity and come out with results, but the same can come with i which does not exist either. They are important, but they are imaginary. The same way you can have the concept "sin x = 2". Such a result is impossible by definition, but there is an imaginary answer.

The problem with your statement is that you have to somehow find a theoretical limit to a vague enough concept as 'power' for God, which I suspect will be just as difficult as trying to find the last digit of 22/7. It might take, dare I say, an infinite amount of time.

It is certainly not countable or knowable, but it has to have a limit. We can know it does have a limit because we can think of things God cannot logically do such as not be God. You could argue for a god that can do such, but such argument would be pointless as logic would not apply at all.

The one I was going to go with is how many rational numbers exist between zero and one. Or to reword it to fit the question at hand: Is there a limit to the quantity of rational numbers between zero and one? That's not a matter of notation, the quantity actually is infinite.

But indeed it is a matter of notation because math is our notation. We can calculate things with infinities, both countable and uncountable, and the square roots of negative numbers, and all the numbers on the complex plane, but that does not mean they necessarily exist as anything but "what if."

You both might find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finitism interesting, though I'm not taking a full finitist stance.
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14