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After many years, I've decided that debating the attributes of the Christian god

#1LinkFanaticPosted 12/3/2012 10:29:08 PM(edited)
is pointless. A friend and I were discussing the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts. I said that god's killing of them was unwarranted, and quite frankly immoral. He responds by saying that while it was a harsh punishment, what they did was one of the most corrupt things one could (and still does) do in the church. I replied by saying that god repaid corruption with even more corruption. He then hypothesized that god, being infinite, has the inherent capacity to judge what we as finite beings cannot. That there was a reason for their deaths, and that in the grand scheme of eternity, was trivial.

I have no issue with the friend, since he's a good guy. I've come to realize, slowly, that attempting to debate and/or falsify the Christian god's character or attributes is pretty much impossible, and it does logically follow that finite beings are ultimately incapable of judging such a being on their own merits. This was the final straw.

So yeah, I'm still an atheist. Very much so. But I have to admit a logical position when I see one. Does this mean I have to be comfortable with what he does? Not at all, and I'm not.

But yeah.
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SSJ Gotenks is santa clause, because he can fly around the planet in one night. - ShaolinAced
#2TheRealJiraiyaPosted 12/3/2012 10:29:40 PM
LinkFanatic posted...
he's a good guy.


Aww, thanks :D
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#3str8KnowledgePosted 12/3/2012 11:06:58 PM
Why did you ever try?
#4LinkFanatic(Topic Creator)Posted 12/3/2012 11:17:55 PM
str8Knowledge posted...
Why did you ever try?


Stupidity, I suppose. That, or ego.
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SSJ Gotenks is santa clause, because he can fly around the planet in one night. - ShaolinAced
#5TheRealJiraiyaPosted 12/3/2012 11:23:31 PM
LinkFanatic posted...
str8Knowledge posted...
Why did you ever try?


Stupidity, I suppose. That, or ego.


Fun?
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"If a man does not know to what port he is sailing, no wind is favorable" -Seneca
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#6gamestop27Posted 12/3/2012 11:29:03 PM
"He then hypothesized that god, being infinite, has the inherent capacity to judge what we as finite beings cannot"

Your buddy pulled that out of his ass with a bulldozer, he doesn't actually know that.
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A birther, a creationist, an anti-vaxxer, and a conspiracy theorist walk into a bar. They are the same person.
#7LinkFanatic(Topic Creator)Posted 12/3/2012 11:33:21 PM
gamestop27 posted...
"He then hypothesized that god, being infinite, has the inherent capacity to judge what we as finite beings cannot"

Your buddy pulled that out of his ass with a bulldozer, he doesn't actually know that.


I think it's kind of a corollary of who god is, though.
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SSJ Gotenks is santa clause, because he can fly around the planet in one night. - ShaolinAced
#8TheRealJiraiyaPosted 12/3/2012 11:34:45 PM
gamestop27 posted...
"He then hypothesized that god, being infinite, has the inherent capacity to judge what we as finite beings cannot"

Your buddy pulled that out of his ass with a bulldozer, he doesn't actually know that.


More specifically, I said

But I will say that killing people from God's perspective is pretty different from our perspective. First, he knows every possible repercussion from killing or not killing them. Second, next to something infinite, anything finite is infinitely small. From God's perspective, there wouldnt be a huge difference between dying at 30 and dying at 80, would there be? Just an infinitely small blip at the beginning of an infinite afterlife. It must look to him what we see when a baby gets a shot. It cries and screams and wonders why that would be done, but it is ultimately for the better, and such a small blip that we dont really consider it, and the baby doesnt even remember it once it starts its vastly larger life later on...

... [way later, after this thread was posted]...

There are two ways of looking at it, and youve chosen the really weird one.

Morality isnt something God decides, its something he IS. All creation strives to be like its creator, and feels a pull to protect those values that are descriptors of God (such as love). If I was trying to be like YOU, Kori, you wouldnt be able to tell me what to do, youd have to fundamentally change who you are in order to change the direction I feel pulled.

So your analysis of the situation is in fact the moral one, and stems from a standard that you glean innately from the nature of God.

But, in many situations, the morality of an act is changed by the level of information. If I tell you I killed someone, you say its bad. If I tell you it was to defend someone else, suddenly its good, despite being the same act, because you have access to more information.

God, having ALL information, can make moral judgments based on that information. Information like what happens to the deceased after death.
Meaning that, unlike us, he can decide to a definite whether or not the world is better off with a certain person dead, and his death isnt really anything, just another infinitely small blip followed by an infinite afterlife. Perception.


Yes, I do know that an infinite being with infinite knowledge is better able to judge the morality of a situation than a finite being. That, my friend, is logic.
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"If a man does not know to what port he is sailing, no wind is favorable" -Seneca
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#9the_hedonistPosted 12/3/2012 11:40:17 PM
But I will say that killing people from God's perspective is pretty different from our perspective. First, he knows every possible repercussion from killing or not killing them. Second, next to something infinite, anything finite is infinitely small. From God's perspective, there wouldnt be a huge difference between dying at 30 and dying at 80, would there be? Just an infinitely small blip at the beginning of an infinite afterlife. It must look to him what we see when a baby gets a shot. It cries and screams and wonders why that would be done, but it is ultimately for the better, and such a small blip that we dont really consider it, and the baby doesnt even remember it once it starts its vastly larger life later on...

I read "It must look to him what we see when a baby gets a shot" as "It must look to him what we see when a baby gets shot" and thought TRJ was a terrible human being.
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"Knowing is the responsible human struggle to rely on clues to focus on a coherent pattern and submit to its reality." -Esther Meek
#10LinkFanatic(Topic Creator)Posted 12/3/2012 11:41:34 PM
the_hedonist posted...
But I will say that killing people from God's perspective is pretty different from our perspective. First, he knows every possible repercussion from killing or not killing them. Second, next to something infinite, anything finite is infinitely small. From God's perspective, there wouldnt be a huge difference between dying at 30 and dying at 80, would there be? Just an infinitely small blip at the beginning of an infinite afterlife. It must look to him what we see when a baby gets a shot. It cries and screams and wonders why that would be done, but it is ultimately for the better, and such a small blip that we dont really consider it, and the baby doesnt even remember it once it starts its vastly larger life later on...

I read "It must look to him what we see when a baby gets a shot" as "It must look to him what we see when a baby gets shot" and thought TRJ was a terrible human being.


lol, I did that at first too.
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SSJ Gotenks is santa clause, because he can fly around the planet in one night. - ShaolinAced