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The creator of moral faculties and disputing his morality on moral grounds.

#41BashyMcFetusPosted 1/2/2013 2:52:43 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
Your moral faculties are not set in stone. They can be trained, desensitized, or changed.

True, but how can you then say yours are the right ones?
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By Evolution, I mean Evolution. As in "I look different from my parents because of evolution" ~OrangeWizard
#42OrangeWizardPosted 1/2/2013 2:54:06 PM
From: BashyMcFetus | #040
True, but how can you then say yours are the right ones?


That's why I don't rely solely upon mine. I defer to a higher wisdom.

If we assume that an objective moral standard exists, wouldn't it be reasonable to defer to that standard, instead of using subjective standards?
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#43hunter_gohanPosted 1/2/2013 4:42:38 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
By saying: " it has nothing to do with conscience, unless it does"


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Ok you know what screw it. If there was even the slightest doubt before this is a crystal clear admission of blatant trolling. THAT WAS IN REPLY TO WHAT IS IN CONTENTION. Are you actually trying to claim that you saw the future and that was the reason you wrote "Also, receiving commands and doing them has nothing to do with conscience, unless it happens to conflict with it."? In addition to that NOT AT ALL MEANING IT IS ALWAYS THE CASE, but the exact opposite.
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#44hunter_gohanPosted 1/2/2013 4:58:43 PM
hunter_gohan posted...
So who has the stronger conscience muscle, the people who gladly kill others because someone told them that god told them to or the people who lock those people up and call them terrorists?


OrangeWizard posted...
Also, receiving commands and doing them has nothing to do with conscience, unless it happens to conflict with it.


hunter_gohan posted...
So it has nothing to do with conscience, unless it does? Yes thank your for that amazing insight that no one else could've deduced.


OrangeWizard posted...
Yes, what you spoke of being always true, is not always true. I'm glad you recognize this.


hunter_gohan posted...
And where exactly did I say that? You were replying to one specific situation with what you said.


OrangeWizard posted...
By saying: " it has nothing to do with conscience, unless it does"

I'm not going crazy am I? This exchange actually just happened right? Am I missing something?
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If you find yourself falling into madness -- dive. -Malkavian Clan Book 1st edition
We eat gods for breakfast. - Dr Egon Spengler
#45gamesrgreatPosted 1/2/2013 6:08:46 PM(edited)
From: kts123 | #026
But heck, more specifically, God made the moral faculties you're using to disagree with him.

In otherwords, your ability to recognize and analyze moral concepts was given by none-other than the one you're questioning. It's just incoherent. You're trusting the prisoner with the keys to the prison and expecting them not to escape. God made your moral compass, if he's evil, how can you even trust yourself? How do you know your idea of "good" isn't actually evil, when you're claiming your sense of right and wrong was created and given to you by an evil dictator.



From: gamesrgreat | #013
So God has absolute control over my moral facilities and I find him to be immoral. Perhaps then he IS immoral or perhaps he simply wishes for me to perceive him as immoral. And obviously with his omniscience he knew I would think that way.

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#46OrangeWizardPosted 1/2/2013 6:11:45 PM
From: hunter_gohan | #043
Am I missing something?


Probably.
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"Let's make this quick, I'm double-parked." - Two-face
#47IvashankoPosted 1/2/2013 6:39:37 PM
I admit to not having read the whole topic. If my points have been brought up before just ignore them.

The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New have one major distinction- His focus changes from focusing on one tribe to an overall group of people. The God of the Bible, and through it Christianity, focuses on not this world but the next, so the systems of morality are different. It seems clear that non-Jews were not being judged like the Jews were, and thus it is logical to assume that the latter where in danger of having a bad afterlife (whatever that might be) while the former are not. Hence the desire to avoid the troubles of the latter rather than the former- if the afterlife is forever it makes sense to value it above the here-and-now. As we cannot know if there even is an afterlife, our system of morality doesn't really factor it in, but if we did know there was one it would be radically different.
#48JonWood007Posted 1/2/2013 8:23:44 PM

Stalin wasn't omnipotent, nor omnipotent. Do you *really* think that a dictator, hellbent on making everyone follow his will, would let anyone disagree with him? Heck, do you think you would resist the temptation to make me agree with you if you were omnipotent?


I fail to see what omnipotence necessarily has with a good heart.

In otherwords, your ability to recognize and analyze moral concepts was given by none-other than the one you're questioning. It's just incoherent. You're trusting the prisoner with the keys to the prison and expecting them not to escape. God made your moral compass, if he's evil, how can you even trust yourself? How do you know your idea of "good" isn't actually evil, when you're claiming your sense of right and wrong was created and given to you by an evil dictator.


Because 1) you don't know that about God, and 2) even if we did, the results speak for themselves. I don't deny that God should theoretically know more than me, but the whole thing is, without him laying his cards on the table I see no reason to trust him, especially when #1 hasnt even been established. My morality is one based on consequences, and I will say straight out I'm fallible, and flawed, but without God to explain his morality, I see no reason to trust. Whenever you dare question the Bible's morality, all I get is this "who are you to question this?! you must follow this unquestioningly blah blah blah". Bullcrap. Christianity, at least certain forms of Christianity, the more I look at them, are oppressive and totally opposed to freedom of thought. You're supposed to just shut up and just trust....well...someone.

There is something a bit strange going on here.

If God created my moral faculties and my moral faculties find him to be immoral, what kind of implication does that have regarding how God created both morality and my moral faculties?


Our moral faculties are not necessarily reliable, yes, but as OW said, they can be trained. And to a well trained moral faculty, the Bible is immoral.

I think what it comes down to is that you have not established that the Bible is in fact the perfect morality. You need to prove it. You need God to demonstrate his Bible with logic and reason. Instead, all we get is "well he knows better than you so shut up."


Whether or not your brain was created by God is a separate discussion. We're working in the counter-factual: If God such and such, then such and such.


Not really, your whole argument is based on the assumption that it is.

But let's just assume it's true. God gave us free will, yet punishes us when we use it. Just think about how screwed up it is. He wants us to act like robots, according to your religion, but he made us to not be robots. Just because we make a morality does not mean it's the right one. We come from our parents, do we have to agree with our parents? Does Skynet have to agree with humans? or the AI in I robot? Does Frankenstein's monster have to agree with frankenstein? Just because we come from someone or were created by them does not mean we have to agree with them. And in some of the cases mentioned, the creators are actually somewhat immoral. Frankenstein was immoral in creating his monster, for example. The thing is, when you create "free agents" (can we just assume free will here if we're dealing with christian hypotheticals?), you can't guarantee they'll act the way you want them to. And I would argue it's immoral in itself to bring a being into this world and then expect it to act as a slave. If you want a slave, make a slave. Don't make a free agent and then expect it to be a slave.
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#49kts123(Topic Creator)Posted 1/3/2013 2:48:55 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#50kts123(Topic Creator)Posted 1/3/2013 3:03:22 PM(edited)
But let's just assume it's true. God gave us free will, yet punishes us when we use it. Just think about how screwed up it is. He wants us to act like robots, according to your religion, but he made us to not be robots. Just because we make a morality does not mean it's the right one. We come from our parents, do we have to agree with our parents? Does Skynet have to agree with humans? or the AI in I robot? Does Frankenstein's monster have to agree with frankenstein? Just because we come from someone or were created by them does not mean we have to agree with them. And in some of the cases mentioned, the creators are actually somewhat immoral. Frankenstein was immoral in creating his monster, for example. The thing is, when you create "free agents" (can we just assume free will here if we're dealing with christian hypotheticals?), you can't guarantee they'll act the way you want them to. And I would argue it's immoral in itself to bring a being into this world and then expect it to act as a slave. If you want a slave, make a slave. Don't make a free agent and then expect it to be a slave.

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Parents have children and want a relationship with those children. Ultimately, for a child with loving parents, a solid parental relationship is a wonderful thing. Sure your children will mess up, and sometimes won't agree with you, but so long as the fundamental relationship is strong all of the little things are covered by love. We are children of God, so there is a degree of obedience God expects of us, but it has always proven to be very reasonable. In my own life, the toughest part of obedience for me has been being nice to people who annoy me severely. If you love others (even very obnoxious people) God's laws tend to take care of themselves, and the mistakes are covered.