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If Christianity is the absolute truth...

#1JonWood007Posted 12/31/2012 11:42:54 PM
...then why do believers need to work so darn hard at keeping their faith strong? Shouldn't Christianity be self evident if it is true? I was recently listening to some sermons online by the pastor at the Christian school I attended during my high school years, and one thing I keep noticing in his sermons is this emphasis on focusing on God. On constant Bible reading. On rejecting "worldly" ideas that are diametrically "opposed to Christ". On keeping centered on your religion

I'm not saying we should not guard ourselves against bad ideas, but doesn't this sound a lot like indoctrination? It's like, Christianity is trying to keep you in this bubble, where you accept their teachings, and reject all others. Other ideas are put there by Satan to deceive you, and you should just trust God. It's okay to think, but make sure you think while staying fixated on the ideas we tell you, the second you begin thinking in nonapproved ways is the day Satan gains control over your life and begins to drag you to hell. To have trouble with your faith and to lose it, you're doing something wrong, you're not staying fixated on Christ, and you better get yourself right or you might find yourself burning in hell forever

I'm not saying this line of thinking is common in ALL churches, but listening to this guy now really kind of sheds light on where I really went "wrong" (or maybe right) in my former Christian life. Again, I cant speak for all of Christianity here, but at least some forms seem to be focused on indoctrination. You should throw out everything that doesn't conform with the Bible, that's Satan talking, and you better make sure you spend as much time as you can constantly focusing on God, and the word, etc. So much of Christianity is about working to maintain a strong level of belief in something there is no proof is true, and it really puts negative connotations on questioning.

If Christianity is the true religion, why is staying strong in your faith such an uphill battle? Shouldn't the truth be obvious? There is so much information out there that flat out contradicts and does not support Christianity, and Christians are more or less supposed to ignore all of it? Isn't there some legitimacy to the idea that maybe it's so hard to keep strong in the faith because you need to willfully shut out all the information that doesn't agree with your worldview?

Just some observations as a former Christian atheist. Several years ago, I likely would have agreed with him, but as I've learned, been exposed to new ideas...Christianity just doesn't seem to hold truth for me. And I'm really resenting listening to people say that it's wrong wrong wrong that I entertain ideas that don't conform with the Bible, and that I should just trust what they say without serious inquiry (not all inquiry is looked down upon obviously, but you better make sure it's all still centered on Christ).

I think if Christianity were true, it would be self evident. There wouldn't be a need to continually read your Bible, and be obsessed with Jesus just to stay strong in your faith. To shut out all ideas that don't conform with religion and to accept ideas that do sounds like indoctrination...not much different than you'd see in a cult, or in countries that force whatever ideology (communism, etc).

I admit, after going to college, I did succumb to "worldly" ideas, and maybe they did eventually destroy my faith, but I did not accept those ideas without reason. I accepted those ideas because they're demonstrably true. This form of Christianity is not. I think the reason it is such an uphill battle is because it remains willfully ignorant in the face of new information that does not coincide with their concept of faith. Christianity is not spreading truth, it's fighting it. Again, cant speak for all Christians tho...
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#2LastManStandingPosted 1/1/2013 1:35:06 AM
Satan is going after Christians very hard, temptations, etc...
Faith is also tested, so you can reduce your faith to a point you leave it, or built it up.
Once the person gets out of the lukewarm state and has a hot faith, where through humility and simplicity you live your life, things start to take place.
I experience certain things, where before they could get me severely angry, now it is like nothing.
I reached a situation, where I basically was going to put into Mary Mother of God hands, and in an instant complete resolution to two problems, just like that.
I love it, absolutely love it.
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#3LastManStandingPosted 1/1/2013 1:45:57 AM
If you would know me before and now, practically cannot be recognized. Changed through Christ and this is just the beginning. I am very excited as faith gets stronger and stronger. Thirst for God.
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Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000
#4Polish_CrusaderPosted 1/1/2013 4:19:31 AM
Initial question is a little non sensical. Its like any skill, if you dont use it you lose it. The best comparison i have heard is like working out with all those big muscle body weight lifters. If they go more than a few days without lifting the muscle seriously drops. You have to keep it strong everyday. The devil is waiting to creep in.

As for your second question- the god of the bible is self evident all around us. From the beauty of the sky and space to the complexity of the human race. No way do we come from ooze and/or monkeys- only a fool would believe that. We were created by a good God.
#5lastheroPosted 1/1/2013 6:29:57 AM
As for your second question- the god of the bible is self evident all around us.

How is God 'self-evident' around us, exactly? I've never seen a mountain with Yahweh's name etched on the side.


From the beauty of the sky and space to the complexity of the human race.


Beauty is subjective, so that doesn't make much sense. So is complexity, really. Complexity in comparison to...what, exactly? And how would this be proof of anything?

No way do we come from ooze and/or monkeys


Read a biology book sometime. Actually read it.
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#6SCAMaz0nPosted 1/1/2013 6:38:26 AM
lasthero posted...
How is God 'self-evident' around us, exactly? I've never seen a mountain with Yahweh's name etched on the side.

It's called the law of nature. Genesis describes it exactly, read it sometime.

Beauty is subjective, so that doesn't make much sense. So is complexity, really. Complexity in comparison to...what, exactly? And how would this be proof of anything?

Literature, art and music are all inspired by God (the good stuff atleast. Definitely not porn or rock n roll).

Read a biology book sometime. Actually read it.

http://www.amazon.com/Campbell-Biology-Concepts-Connections-MasteringBiology/dp/0321696484/
There' no way in Hell I'm related to that thing on the cover.
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#7lastheroPosted 1/1/2013 6:54:24 AM
It's called the law of nature. Genesis describes it exactly, read it sometime.


The law of nature of is not 'described exactly' in Genesis. There was never a time when there were only two humans on the planet, we did not start at the Bronze Age, animals were not all created at the same time, so forth and so on.

Literature, art and music are all inspired by God (the good stuff atleast. Definitely not porn or rock n roll).


Rock and roll is the greatest music ever conceived, and if there is a God, he surely had a hand in it. Rock is the music of the gods.

http://www.amazon.com/Campbell-Biology-Concepts-Connections-MasteringBiology/dp/0321696484/
There' no way in Hell I'm related to that thing on the cover.


Hello, Argument from Incredulity.
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#8Faust_8Posted 1/1/2013 8:48:04 AM
Argument from Incredulity, Argument from Ignorance, strawmen...just failures all around by Polish and SCAM.

And apparently belief is a skill now. I can't tell you how hard I have to exercise my belief that there should be greater gun control--if I don't sit down and think about it for an hour a day, it just up and disappears.
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#9Lord_IchmaelPosted 1/1/2013 9:17:09 AM
LMS responds exactly the way JonWood says Christians would, Polish_Crusader uses a bunch of logical fallacies, and SCAMaz0n makes unsupported assertions and the argument from incredulity. More or less what JonWood was saying Christians would say about it.
#10JonWood007(Topic Creator)Posted 1/1/2013 9:29:44 AM
Satan is going after Christians very hard, temptations, etc...
Faith is also tested, so you can reduce your faith to a point you leave it, or built it up.
Once the person gets out of the lukewarm state and has a hot faith, where through humility and simplicity you live your life, things start to take place.
I experience certain things, where before they could get me severely angry, now it is like nothing.
I reached a situation, where I basically was going to put into Mary Mother of God hands, and in an instant complete resolution to two problems, just like that.
I love it, absolutely love it.


But without proof of Satan, isn't this just a scare tactic? I could say if you don't eat pasta every day the flying spaghetti monster will come to get you. I guess a major point of my post is, isn't keeping so strong in the faith just an act of futility? Isn't the threat of Satan just a scare tactic to keep people in line, whether they realize it or not? (and having known the pastor giving those sermons personally, I know he really believes that stuff).

If you would know me before and now, practically cannot be recognized. Changed through Christ and this is just the beginning. I am very excited as faith gets stronger and stronger. Thirst for God.


You could say the same about me. Believe it or not I used to be a lot like you (or, maybe closer to Polish in my views). Now I'm me. Thirst for truth.

Initial question is a little non sensical. Its like any skill, if you dont use it you lose it. The best comparison i have heard is like working out with all those big muscle body weight lifters. If they go more than a few days without lifting the muscle seriously drops. You have to keep it strong everyday. The devil is waiting to creep in.


While I get the analogy, the same can be true with any belief system. If you expose yourself constantly to any belief system, every day, and then shut out all conflicting info, of course you're going to believe that belief system. What I'm arguing is if Christianity is the truth, you would not need to more or less constantly brainwash yourself, you could look at all ideas in the market place of ideas, evaluate them all, and Christianity would clearly make the most sense. Instead, you're supposed to shut out all of that stuff and stay focused on this one belief system.


As for your second question- the god of the bible is self evident all around us. From the beauty of the sky and space to the complexity of the human race. No way do we come from ooze and/or monkeys- only a fool would believe that. We were created by a good God.


More or less paraphrasing Romans 1:20....seeing how I used to think like you, I understand where you're coming from, but the universe is so much more complicated than this. Darwin himself expressed potential doubts about this theory (and Christians often like to misquote him on this), stating that on the surface the fact that we came from ooze and crap seems ridiculous, but if enough evidence backs it up, you gotta support that conclusion. If we can find extensive evidence for evolution (like we have) to the point that we can base many theories in numerous academic disciplines on it (like we have) and have it all fit, then we gotta accept it. That's intellectual honesty. And I'm sorry, young earth creationism is not supported.

To go back to your muscle analogy, yes, the brain is to be trained like a muscle, but it should be tuned to be open to new ideas, to evaluate them, and to accept them or reject them on merit with as little bias as possible getting involved. We must constantly update our theories based on new information, and not get complacent accepting things dogmatically. This is where religion fails.
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