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I need a definition of faith that is precise.

#311GegengegengegenPosted 1/29/2013 6:00:27 PM
cyclonekruse posted...

Let me ask you, what was I dishonest about?


I dunno, Ayn Randy Savage's explanations for what you're doing make a lot more sense than yours do. I believe his side of the story than I believe yours


And can you show that me admitting my bias did nothing to help keep me honest?


In order to let him know you were biased against him, you had to be able to type out that fact to begin with. If you can type out that fact, you already know you're biased. So telling him serves no purpose.
#312cyclonekrusePosted 1/29/2013 7:02:07 PM
Gegengegengegen posted...
I dunno, Ayn Randy Savage's explanations for what you're doing make a lot more sense than yours do. I believe his side of the story than I believe yours

Well he is cherry-picking information to make his case. So that makes his explanations seem more credible than perhaps they should. You'd have to go through our entire exchange to properly render judgment which would be a huge time investment for very little payoff. Suffice it to say that you aren't getting the whole back story from him. I've actually kept my opinions to myself more than he has since that initial exchange (which is in fact what he usually brings up).

In order to let him know you were biased against him, you had to be able to type out that fact to begin with. If you can type out that fact, you already know you're biased. So telling him serves no purpose.

You didn't answer my question. Can you show that it didn't help to keep me honest? Being aware of something is one thing. Letting other people know you're aware so you can't feign ignorance is something else.

Please indulge me and let me ask you what purpose you think ARS's initial post in this topic served using this same metric. He was already aware he was disappointed. What was the point in voicing it?
---
Locke: "Why do you find it so hard to believe?" || Jack "Why do you find it so easy?!" ||
Locke: "It's never been easy!"
#313GegengegengegenPosted 1/29/2013 8:12:26 PM
Well I'm sure he's cherrypicking stuff to suit his argument, but that's so not important here. What's important here is that he's been making fun of you this entire topic, and you've been doing your damnedest to prove that he's been right to.




You didn't answer my question. Can you show that it didn't help to keep me honest? Being aware of something is one thing. Letting other people know you're aware so you can't feign ignorance is something else.


Of course I can, because this wasn't about whether you could feign ignorance, this was about whether you could be honest with yourself.

Please indulge me and let me ask you what purpose you think ARS's initial post in this topic served using this same metric. He was already aware he was disappointed. What was the point in voicing it?


I think his initial point was to mock you, and it worked. There's also the chance that he was actually disappointed that you gave up on making a legitimate argument when you're willing to spend so much time arguing over trivial things.
#314cyclonekrusePosted 1/29/2013 9:23:14 PM
From: Gegengegengegen | #313
Well I'm sure he's cherrypicking stuff to suit his argument, but that's so not important here. What's important here is that he's been making fun of you this entire topic, and you've been doing your damnedest to prove that he's been right to.

He's been right to make fun of me? How so?

Of course I can, because this wasn't about whether you could feign ignorance, this was about whether you could be honest with yourself.

I was never worried about being honest with myself. ARS inserted the "with myself" bit. I was just talking about being honest in general.

I think his initial point was to mock you, and it worked.

Sounds like you're accusing him of trolling.

There's also the chance that he was actually disappointed that you gave up on making a legitimate argument when you're willing to spend so much time arguing over trivial things.

Even assuming that's true, why voice that opinion? He would certainly be aware of the disappointment without posting anything.
---
Locke: "Why do you find it so hard to believe?" || Jack "Why do you find it so easy?!" ||
Locke: "It's never been easy!"
#315GegengegengegenPosted 1/30/2013 7:51:02 AM
cyclonekruse posted...

He's been right to make fun of me? How so?


Because all his ridicule has been accurate.


I was never worried about being honest with myself. ARS inserted the "with myself" bit. I was just talking about being honest in general.


Well then we're back to the beginning, as to why you felt the need to be honest about the fact that you had no respect for him. It's the honest truth that I'm wearing a grey sweater right now, but there's no reason to bring it up in a debate about healthcare or what-not.


Sounds like you're accusing him of trolling.


If I remember right, trolling is done for the express purpose of provoking you. I don't think he even expected you to read his post.


Even assuming that's true, why voice that opinion? He would certainly be aware of the disappointment without posting anything.


Because he did make an interesting point that you're incredibly tenacious when trying to defend your personal honor, but quick to give up on intellectual issues.
#316AynRandySavagePosted 1/30/2013 8:40:26 AM
I'm really not trying to make fun of him at all here. I originally just wanted to make a point that I thought(and that you apparently agree) was interesting.
#317cyclonekrusePosted 1/30/2013 7:04:44 PM
From: Gegengegengegen | #315
Because all his ridicule has been accurate.

So it's "right" to make fun of a fat person if they truly are fat?

Well then we're back to the beginning, as to why you felt the need to be honest about the fact that you had no respect for him. It's the honest truth that I'm wearing a grey sweater right now, but there's no reason to bring it up in a debate about healthcare or what-not.

Telling your interlocutor that you have no respect for him/her does affect the discussion in a way that saying you're wearing a grey sweater does not, though. It lets the other person know what kind of climate the debate will have. It also lets the other person know that their words have crossed a certain line (at least in the your mind). And it should indicate that further antagonism will not be met kindly.

If someone told me they had no respect for me as a person, my first reaction would be to wonder why. To figure out what I did that makes him/her feel this way. It might turn out that I feel like I've done nothing wrong. But I still wouldn't think it was coming out of nowhere. In the other person's mind, there's a reason I have lost respect that I may need to account for.

If I remember right, trolling is done for the express purpose of provoking you. I don't think he even expected you to read his post.

How would it "work" at mocking me if I didn't read it? I guess I'm not sure what you mean by that.

But I don't believe he didn't expect me to read it. Why would he assume that I wouldn't check in on this topic after I called it quits with OW? Also, he's commented several times in the past on me coming back to a topic after expressing I was done with it. So he knew or should have known that I wouldn't just stop reading the posts here. His claim doesn't hold water.

Because he did make an interesting point that you're incredibly tenacious when trying to defend your personal honor, but quick to give up on intellectual issues.

You're wrong on both counts here, actually. I didn't give up on an intellectual issue, the discussion with OW had devolved to the point where there was nothing intellectual about it any more. Also, as ARS can attest, I am not unwilling to take an intellectual debate to 500. We've been through that several times. And this is not about defending my honor. I don't deny my character flaws. ARS will tell you I'm too open about them, if anything.

Fake edit: I checked back and I'm not quite sure where I told ARS I had no respect for him. I found where I acknowledged that I had no respect for him when he suggested as much but that's different. It would be interesting to me if he's misremembering things (again) and creating a fantasy where I've said things I didn't say..
---
Locke: "Why do you find it so hard to believe?" || Jack "Why do you find it so easy?!" ||
Locke: "It's never been easy!"
#318GegengegengegenPosted 1/30/2013 8:30:40 PM
cyclonekruse posted...

Telling your interlocutor that you have no respect for him/her does affect the discussion in a way that saying you're wearing a grey sweater does not, though. It lets the other person know what kind of climate the debate will have.


So its worse than irrelevant. You're actually negatively affecting the debate by letting your interlocutor know that you're not capable of being partial. That hurts you and him. The point of a debate is to have two people with competing viewpoints discussing as equals. By admitting your bias, you're disqualifying yourself from that discussion.

If someone told me they had no respect for me as a person, my first reaction would be to wonder why.


I'd wonder why they felt the need to say it. And I think Ayn Randy Savage and I are in the same boat in that we'd both think the other person lost his temper and couldn't argue properly.

I
How would it "work" at mocking me if I didn't read it? I guess I'm not sure what you mean by that.


mocking is just ridiculing someone. They don't need to see it.
#319GegengegengegenPosted 1/30/2013 8:33:17 PM
Also, he's commented several times in the past on me coming back to a topic after expressing I was done with it.


Then in that case, maybe he was trying to antagonize you, I don't know.


discussion with OW had devolved to the point where there was nothing intellectual about it any more.


I thought it was interesting, that's why I'm here. For the record, I think you were right, but I also think OW argued his point better than you did.

And this is not about defending my honor


Then what is it about? And if you're going to admit your personality flaws, why aren't you even trying to fix them?

Fake edit: I checked back and I'm not quite sure where I told ARS I had no respect for him. I found where I acknowledged that I had no respect for him when he suggested as much but that's different. It would be interesting to me if he's misremembering things (again) and creating a fantasy where I've said things I didn't say..


However it happened doesn't matter. Two wrongs doesn't make a right . I haven't seen Ayn Randy Savage do anything particularly bad in this discussion except mock some very serious problems in your argument technique.
#320GegengegengegenPosted 1/30/2013 8:33:46 PM
AynRandySavage posted...
I'm really not trying to make fun of him at all here. I originally just wanted to make a point that I thought(and that you apparently agree) was interesting.


How much have you argued with this guy, and why?