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Just read some interesting historical article on Martin Luther - one word shock

#21AynRandySavagePosted 1/14/2013 7:37:22 AM(edited)
TheRealJiraiya posted...
You read about him when he got old, sick, and senile. His younger self would have hated his older self.


More damage control. Why is it that every time a Christian says something you disagree with or find morally reprehensible, it doesn't "count" for some reason? Why do you so easily disregard the fact that Luther could have been perfectly lucid and clear-minded, irrespective of whatever illnesses he may have had, in his later writings?
#22TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/14/2013 7:47:01 AM
AynRandySavage posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
You read about him when he got old, sick, and senile. His younger self would have hated his older self.


More damage control. Why is it that every time a Christian says something you disagree with or find morally reprehensible, it doesn't "count" for some reason? Why do you so easily disregard the fact that Luther could have been perfectly lucid and clear-minded, irrespective of whatever illnesses he may have had, in his later writings?


No, not damage control. This is a fact. And you can ask anyone who has been around for awhile - when a Christian does or says something truly reprehensible Im the first one to jump all over him.

In this case, however, we had a man who, for most of his life, was saying things like this:

Martin Luther
“Absurd Theologians defend hatred for the Jews… what Jew would consent to enter our ranks when he sees the cruelty and enmity we wreak on them – that in our behavior towards them we resemble less Christians than Beasts?


And

“If I had been a Jew and seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings… if the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles.. we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord.”


Then he gets old, gets a big mass of health problems, goes a bit senile, and writes a book called "On the Jews and their Lies" and spends the short rest of his life calling the Jews a "base wh*ring people" who are "full of the Devil's feces".

That is a huge about face. And with the health problems we KNOW he had ( Ménière's disease, vertigo, fainting, tinnitus, a cataract in one eye, kidney and bladder stones, arthritis, a ruptured ear drum, and angina) and the radical change in his comments, this is a pretty open-shut case. He got senile, and the extreme pain his body was constantly going through put his senile self into a constant rage.

You continue your arrogant ignorance about history in this thread as well I see.
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#23AynRandySavagePosted 1/14/2013 7:57:24 AM
TheRealJiraiya posted...

No, not damage control. This is a fact. And you can ask anyone who has been around for awhile - when a Christian does or says something truly reprehensible Im the first one to jump all over him.


You certainly didn't do that for the Nazis or any of their precursors in the Positive Christianity movement. You just said they didn't count as Christians.

That is a huge about face. And with the health problems we KNOW he had ( Ménière's disease, vertigo, fainting, tinnitus, a cataract in one eye, kidney and bladder stones, arthritis, a ruptured ear drum, and angina) and the radical change in his comments, this is a pretty open-shut case.


Correlation does not imply causation. Try having a bit more intellectual integrity.
#24TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/14/2013 8:02:03 AM
AynRandySavage posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...

No, not damage control. This is a fact. And you can ask anyone who has been around for awhile - when a Christian does or says something truly reprehensible Im the first one to jump all over him.


You certainly didn't do that for the Nazis or any of their precursors in the Positive Christianity movement. You just said they didn't count as Christians.

I actually proved that the Nazis were not Christian, but lets keep these discussions separate. Im returning to that thread when I once again have the patience to sit through someone blatantly denying history while I retype evidence over and over. Just thought Id take a vacation.

That is a huge about face. And with the health problems we KNOW he had ( Ménière's disease, vertigo, fainting, tinnitus, a cataract in one eye, kidney and bladder stones, arthritis, a ruptured ear drum, and angina) and the radical change in his comments, this is a pretty open-shut case.


Correlation does not imply causation. Try having a bit more intellectual integrity.


... No, but the senile explanation is the most reasonable one for the evidence at hand. What alternate explanation do you have for the change?

I feel like you are just so desperate to tie all of these bad things to Christianity that youre ignoring facts. I dont get that. It isnt like Christianity doesnt have the Crusades and witch burning and even the modern gay and science bashing to feed your desire to slam my religion. But in the case of the Nazis and Martin Luther, there is a bit more to the story. In the former's case, the "more to the story" clears Christianity's name in that whole debacle.
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#25AynRandySavagePosted 1/14/2013 8:11:36 AM(edited)
TheRealJiraiya posted...

... No, but the senile explanation is the most reasonable one for the evidence at hand.


No, it is to YOU because you want it to be the most reasonable.

What alternate explanation do you have for the change?


Maybe he was frustrated at the pace with which Jews were being converted to Christianity. Maybe he had bad experiences with Jews at some point late in his life. Maybe he had always been virulently Anti-Semitic, like most of his contemporaries, but just hid it for pragmatic purposes. Maybe he re-read the Bible or the works of the Early Church fathers and something in it changed his mind. Maybe a convincing argument by a peer changed his mind.

I don't see how any of those possibilities are any less likely than yours. In fact, I don't see how yours is even AS likely as them, as all of the above give a causal explanation for why he'd be anti-semitic. Just becoming old and senile doesn't necessarily mean he'd be anti-semitic. Lots of people get old and bitter, not all of them hate Jews as a result, not even in Medieval Germany.

I feel like you are just so desperate to tie all of these bad things to Christianity that youre ignoring facts.


You can feel whatever you want, but if you think I'm ignoring facts, then tell me which ones I'm ignoring.


In the former's case, the "more to the story" clears Christianity's name in that whole debacle.


I'd like to see the "more to the story" but you scampered out of the last thread when you got caught on your historical inadequacies.
#26LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 1/14/2013 8:23:06 AM
What I read also that Luther who broke off from the Catholic Church had insane hate for the Church, and would gather support from people that were not believers.
I'm sorry but this is not how disciple of Christ behaves. That is not what Christ teaches. He broke up the Church and interesting enough three factors that are strong in the fight vs Satan, which he fears were removed from the faith:
- the Eucharist
- Role of Mary Mother of God
- Archangel Michael
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Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000
#27Cubbiesboy22Posted 1/14/2013 8:58:20 AM
LastManStanding posted...
What I read also that Luther who broke off from the Catholic Church had insane hate for the Church, and would gather support from people that were not believers.
I'm sorry but this is not how disciple of Christ behaves. That is not what Christ teaches. He broke up the Church and interesting enough three factors that are strong in the fight vs Satan, which he fears were removed from the faith:
- the Eucharist
- Role of Mary Mother of God
- Archangel Michael


Remember bro, the Catholic Church around this time was corrupt as hell. You are going to hell... unless you pay us money. Then you get to go to heaven.
#28ravenomoarPosted 1/14/2013 9:59:53 AM
Yes including the knights of the first crusade. Basically got free pass to murder non believers. Lets say this loudly, RELIGION IS BAD MKKAY.
#29LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 1/14/2013 11:48:49 AM
It is all about intent, Luther's intent is worrisome.
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Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000
#30Joe605Posted 1/14/2013 12:16:25 PM
He argued that Christians should reject reason, for reason is the enemy of Christianity. enough said.
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