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Just read some interesting historical article on Martin Luther - one word shock

#61fudrickPosted 1/22/2013 5:19:26 PM
LastManStanding posted...
What you just remind me is to pray for the priests.
The most tempted people in the world by Satan.


Yes, it is so hard to resist the temptation to touch young boys' genitals. Resisting that is probably the most difficult thing a person could do, right?
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#62ravenomoarPosted 1/22/2013 6:49:25 PM
fudrick posted...
LastManStanding posted...
What you just remind me is to pray for the priests.
The most tempted people in the world by Satan.


Yes, it is so hard to resist the temptation to touch young boys' genitals. Resisting that is probably the most difficult thing a person could do, right?


It's okay they will go to confession and all of their sins will be absolved. Hell even murder is acceptable. Jesus loves you!
#63sthaterPosted 1/22/2013 7:00:29 PM(edited)
TheRealJiraiya posted...
You read about him when he got old, sick, and senile. His younger self would have hated his older self.


Ugh... Luther was saying pretty nasty stuff about Jews even before he got old. I'm not saying that invalidates his ideas regarding the catholic church and such but it seems pretty clear to me that he was a rather nasty person from the start.

edit: Also I don't really see how you can credit On The Jews and Their Lies as the product of senility. Really it seems like the culmination of a lifetime of bitterness and hatred. It's horrifying but it is most certainly not the half-baked ramblings of a senile person.
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We must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig. Cow after cow. Village after village. Army after army.
#64LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 1/22/2013 7:33:47 PM
sthater posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
You read about him when he got old, sick, and senile. His younger self would have hated his older self.


Ugh... Luther was saying pretty nasty stuff about Jews even before he got old. I'm not saying that invalidates his ideas regarding the catholic church and such but it seems pretty clear to me that he was a rather nasty person from the start.

edit: Also I don't really see how you can credit On The Jews and Their Lies as the product of senility. Really it seems like the culmination of a lifetime of bitterness and hatred. It's horrifying but it is most certainly not the half-baked ramblings of a senile person.


You can use the argument from the Bible, you will know them by their fruits regarding Luther. If I would be a Protestant, I would not feel comfortable that such a person is responsible for me believing what I am believing.
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Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000
#65IvashankoPosted 1/22/2013 8:37:11 PM
The only relevant differences between early Pre-Nazi and Post-Nazi Positive Christianity would be whether the anti-semitic and nationalist aspects were created totally artificially. That would justify the argument that (you made) that a Christian sect isn't Christian if its leaders don't at all believe it(which I'm not quite sure I agree with to begin with)

I don't agree, and in all honesty I think it is going to have to end there because our definitions of what is and is not 'Christian' is too different to have a productive conversation on this issue. I believe that Positive Christianity, both the Nazi and the pre-Nazi version (which I still hold to be two different kinds of Positive Christianity), were as similar to Christianity as Judaism is. If you read German or Russian I could suggest some books to read, but I am not sure what other languages they are translated into...

Ugh... Luther was saying pretty nasty stuff about Jews even before he got old. I'm not saying that invalidates his ideas regarding the catholic church and such but it seems pretty clear to me that he was a rather nasty person from the start.

edit: Also I don't really see how you can credit On The Jews and Their Lies as the product of senility. Really it seems like the culmination of a lifetime of bitterness and hatred. It's horrifying but it is most certainly not the half-baked ramblings of a senile person.


In one of my earlier posts I mentioned how Luther used to be a close ally to the Jews, and then that turned to ambivalence, and latter to outright loathing. We are not sure why that changed, or even when, so making any definite 'call' on the issue has little historical bases.
#66chukie_suePosted 1/22/2013 8:56:22 PM
From: sthater | #303
TheRealJiraiya posted...
You read about him when he got old, sick, and senile. His younger self would have hated his older self.


Ugh... Luther was saying pretty nasty stuff about Jews even before he got old. I'm not saying that invalidates his ideas regarding the catholic church and such but it seems pretty clear to me that he was a rather nasty person from the start.

edit: Also I don't really see how you can credit On The Jews and Their Lies as the product of senility. Really it seems like the culmination of a lifetime of bitterness and hatred. It's horrifying but it is most certainly not the half-baked ramblings of a senile person.


You know, I studied Luther pretty in depth just recently in a church history class. While I admit the Reformation Bible College would probably be inclined to be biased, I am pretty convinced Luther wasn't a monster. He was a jerk, and he admitted that. But his comments against the Jews must be looked at with respect to the fact that we're dealing with a stubborn, passionate, and persecuted man trying to deal with a group of people that won't accept the Jesus he is facing death for.

There's a lot of things wrong with Luther. There's a lot of things wrong with his Theology (most Lutherans are not Luther-ans, meaning they don't actually have the same Theology). But let's not forget he had literally no contemporaries - save Wycliffe and Huss who died shortly before him - to support him and his cause to reform one of the most powerful, violent, and corrupt institutions we have ever seen.

Besides, I like John Calvin... so yeah.
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"Christ is with those of humble mind, not with those who exalt themselves over his flock." -St. Clement of Rome.
#67sthaterPosted 1/22/2013 11:46:59 PM
chukie_sue posted...
From: sthater | #303
TheRealJiraiya posted...
You read about him when he got old, sick, and senile. His younger self would have hated his older self.


Ugh... Luther was saying pretty nasty stuff about Jews even before he got old. I'm not saying that invalidates his ideas regarding the catholic church and such but it seems pretty clear to me that he was a rather nasty person from the start.

edit: Also I don't really see how you can credit On The Jews and Their Lies as the product of senility. Really it seems like the culmination of a lifetime of bitterness and hatred. It's horrifying but it is most certainly not the half-baked ramblings of a senile person.


You know, I studied Luther pretty in depth just recently in a church history class. While I admit the Reformation Bible College would probably be inclined to be biased, I am pretty convinced Luther wasn't a monster. He was a jerk, and he admitted that. But his comments against the Jews must be looked at with respect to the fact that we're dealing with a stubborn, passionate, and persecuted man trying to deal with a group of people that won't accept the Jesus he is facing death for.

There's a lot of things wrong with Luther. There's a lot of things wrong with his Theology (most Lutherans are not Luther-ans, meaning they don't actually have the same Theology). But let's not forget he had literally no contemporaries - save Wycliffe and Huss who died shortly before him - to support him and his cause to reform one of the most powerful, violent, and corrupt institutions we have ever seen.

Besides, I like John Calvin... so yeah.


Well honestly whether he was a monster or not a lot of the things he said and or tried to do seem quite monstrous to me. I certainly don't mean to single out Luther since anti-semitism was quite rampant at the time so he was not part of some loud mouthed minority. In any case I don't think his anti-semitism and nastiness is some aspect of him becoming old and senile. To me it seems like the build up of a lifetime of anger and bitterness. As for whether or not that makes him a monster I'll concede that there's no way to really know that for sure about him. But I don't see how that makes his actions excusable in any way. And I suppose that may be one thing that we're just going to have to agree to disagree on there.
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We must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig. Cow after cow. Village after village. Army after army.
#68LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 1/23/2013 7:59:36 AM
What you going to tell the Lord later, when you do not consume the Holy Communion, His Body and Blood, which he showed that is the case in 133 Eucharist miracles???
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Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000
#69stuartturner101Posted 1/23/2013 8:20:43 AM
LastManStanding posted...
What you going to tell the Lord later, when you do not consume the Holy Communion, His Body and Blood, which he showed that is the case in 133 Eucharist miracles???


What, would you suppose, the question would be? Why did you not? I would probably say that I had no reason to.
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If you want oak, chew on a plank.
#70LastManStanding(Topic Creator)Posted 1/23/2013 8:32:24 AM
stuartturner101 posted...
LastManStanding posted...
What you going to tell the Lord later, when you do not consume the Holy Communion, His Body and Blood, which he showed that is the case in 133 Eucharist miracles???


What, would you suppose, the question would be? Why did you not? I would probably say that I had no reason to.


You would tell the Lord, you had no reason to consume it. Are you serious?
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Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000