This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

Does creating a sentient being give you the right to mistreat it?

#11Julian_CaesarPosted 1/17/2013 1:32:10 AM
From: JonWood007 | #009
As for God being the source of moral good, I already went over this in the other topic. Automatically defining whatever God says is good as good is not only arbitrary, but is also begging the question.


And as I've explained many times before, God's morality is only "arbitrary" in the sense that He is an arbiter; that is, He makes decisions based solely on His own judgment. And since He is perfect, that judgment is perfectly just (unlike a human arbiter whose own judgment cannot be perfectly just). Thus the term "arbitrary" is technically correct, but does not have the same connotation as if we applied the term to a human being.

So it's not begging the question. It's affirming the assumptions. If you don't like that, then stop using arguments that employ bad logic.

The second half I'm referring to eternal hell as far as torture goes. That's torture devoid of any positive benefit.


God didn't force that on anyone. It's our free choice as to whether we spend eternity separated from Him or not.

Well no crap. Because he gave the beings free will then expects them not to use it in this situation! I think if you want dumbed down slaves, make dumbed down slaves. I'm not saying that necessarily enjoying God's company or whatever is a bad thing. A true omniscient being would be awesome to hang with and enjoy the company of and the like. But I'm speaking of a god using quite a few sticks to those who don't comply with his demands. Like death, or eternal punishment, you know, stuff like that. Giving you free will but punishing you if you actually use it. Sounds more like a dictator to me. I think if God were truly all of the things Christians say he is, he would probably be able to disarm people diplomatically, God wouldn't even NEED to use a stick. He would be so awesome we would have no choice but to like him unless you're a total jerk.


Funny, this is kinda the way I feel about Him right now. Although I would replace "total jerk" with "lost soul."

You might argue that "God hasn't revealed Himself enough." But the Bible is replete with people who quickly forgot God's power, even when they were physically present for truly miraculous events. Belief is belief; you cannot be logically forced to have faith by proof, because that is not faith. If you don't want to believe God exists, no amount of proof will ever sway you. And if you want to believe God exists, no amount of proof will ever dissuade you.

My point is that you're echoing a sentiment that is not new at all. And if you don't want to believe in God, no answer of mine or anyone else's will be sufficient in your estimation.
---
Every day the rest of your life is changed forever.
#12fudrickPosted 1/17/2013 4:06:16 AM
Julian_Caesar posted...
If you don't want to believe God exists, no amount of proof will ever sway you. And if you want to believe God exists, no amount of proof will ever dissuade you.


What if you want to believe the truth?
---
Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious
#13SystemafunkPosted 1/17/2013 5:06:48 AM
For the record, the claim is not just that. It is also that God, being all knowing, is also capable of being entirely just. He doesn't take away life or cause suffering for no reason. That would be a strawman. I mean, you can disagree with it, but arguing against something else is propping up a strawman.
#14hunter_gohanPosted 1/17/2013 1:06:38 PM
Julian_Caesar posted...
So it's not begging the question. It's affirming the assumptions. If you don't like that, then stop using arguments that employ bad logic.


It is the very definition of begging the question. God's judgement is perfectly just. Why? Because I assume he is perfect!

"Begging the question (Latin petitio principii, "assuming the initial point") is a type of informal fallacy in which an implicit premise would directly entail the conclusion. Begging the question is one of the classic informal fallacies in Aristotle's Prior Analytics. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

God didn't force that on anyone. It's our free choice as to whether we spend eternity separated from Him or not.


Stalin didn't force anyone to go to the Siberian gulags. It was there free choice as to whether or not to go.

If you don't want to believe God exists, no amount of proof will ever sway you. And if you want to believe God exists, no amount of proof will ever dissuade you.


What fudrick said. I'm interested in the truth. I want to believe I'm a billionaire; that doesn't mean it's true, and the glaring evidence that I am not a billionaire very much does dissuade me from believing that.

Systemafunk posted...
For the record, the claim is not just that. It is also that God, being all knowing, is also capable of being entirely just. He doesn't take away life or cause suffering for no reason. That would be a strawman. I mean, you can disagree with it, but arguing against something else is propping up a strawman.


Capable is the key word there. First off, even if he's real, he could be lying about being all knowing. If he was all-knowing though just because he'd be capable doesn't actually mean that is what he's aiming for.
---
The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#15lastheroPosted 1/17/2013 1:31:59 PM
And if you want to believe God exists, no amount of proof will ever dissuade you.

I'd like to believe God exists. I know that's a tough sell, but that would make my life so much simpler. It would be nice not to have to worry what my parents and family will do if/when they find out. It would be nice to be able to make a Youtube video and not have to worry about it making its way to someone I know. I would be nice to have a book that gives me all the answers to life and be assured about my fate after death. I remember what it was like to be a Christian and have that feeling of connection and safety, and I won't lie, sometimes, I do genuinely miss it.

I'm not an atheist because I want to be. I'm atheist because I honestly am. I did an honest assessment of my beliefs and that's what I came out with. It's not about what I want.
---
X-Men: First Class RPG - Welcoming all new players!
[http://s1.zetaboards.com/New_Mutants/index/]
#16Julian_CaesarPosted 1/17/2013 1:41:50 PM
From: fudrick | #012
What if you want to believe the truth?


Then look for it. And be honest with yourself about whether you have preconceived notions of "truth" from the get-go, and what your actual purpose is in seeking truth. As an example, Christians who look for the "truth" of Scriptures for the purpose of proving God exists, or proving atheists wrong, are going to be sorely disappointed and ultimately unhappy.

From: hunter_gohan | #014
It is the very definition of begging the question. God's judgement is perfectly just. Why? Because I assume he is perfect!


Except that you assumed He existed. And guess what? God is perfect by definition. Like it or not, you can't wave that assumption away and tack it on the end of the argument, as if it didn't exist beforehand. If He wasn't perfect, He wouldn't be God. And for God to exist, He has to be perfect. End of story. I don't know why you're beating your head against this particular brick wall.

Stalin didn't force anyone to go to the Siberian gulags. It was there free choice as to whether or not to go.


So living under Communist rule as an obedient citizen was equivalent to having a loving relationship with the most perfect being who has ever existed? And Stalin was an omniscient, omnipotent being who created the whole world by merely speaking? Please, enlighten me on this subject.

What fudrick said. I'm interested in the truth. I want to believe I'm a billionaire; that doesn't mean it's true, and the glaring evidence that I am not a billionaire very much does dissuade me from believing that.


You're interested in your own brand of truth, nothing more. Until you cast off your own preconceived notions of what can and cannot be true, you will be never be seeking truth. You will be seeking affirmation of what you already believe to be true.

Interestingly enough, I am in the same boat as you. The difference is that I am fully willing to admit that my perception of truth is dictated by what I choose to believe about truth. You, on the other hand, have been deluded into thinking that "truth" is ONLY attainable by some outside force or system which removes the responsibility of choice from your quest. "I don't choose to believe anything; science chooses it for me! And anyone who chooses belief by not-science is automatically wrong." There's nothing wrong with accepting the validity of science on the grounds of past observation; there is something fundamentally wrong, however, with suggesting that such validity automatically invalidates other kinds of truth.
---
Every day the rest of your life is changed forever.
#17Lord_IchmaelPosted 1/17/2013 1:44:39 PM
Julian_Caesar posted...
Except that you assumed He existed. And guess what? God is perfect by definition. Like it or not, you can't wave that assumption away and tack it on the end of the argument, as if it didn't exist beforehand. If He wasn't perfect, He wouldn't be God. And for God to exist, He has to be perfect. End of story. I don't know why you're beating your head against this particular brick wall


I don't follow. All you can assume from this topic's premise is that a god/God created the universe. That doesn't imply anything else about Him. I don't see how creating a universe requires one to be perfect in any way.
#18Julian_CaesarPosted 1/17/2013 1:58:45 PM
From: Lord_Ichmael | #017
I don't follow. All you can assume from this topic's premise is that a god/God created the universe. That doesn't imply anything else about Him. I don't see how creating a universe requires one to be perfect in any way.


Not in the very first sentence, no. But JonWood went on to specifically address this question towards the God of the Bible, which is the part that I'm responding to.

I agree, the act of creation itself does not mean the creator is perfect...at least not within our universe. I have argued in the past that any Creator of our whole universe (God or otherwise) would by perfect according to the rules of this universe, since He is the source of all of them and they would reflect His nature. It's a philosophical exercise, not an entrenched belief.
---
Every day the rest of your life is changed forever.
#19JonWood007(Topic Creator)Posted 1/17/2013 4:19:52 PM
Except that you assumed He existed. And guess what? God is perfect by definition. Like it or not, you can't wave that assumption away and tack it on the end of the argument, as if it didn't exist beforehand. If He wasn't perfect, He wouldn't be God. And for God to exist, He has to be perfect. End of story. I don't know why you're beating your head against this particular brick wall.


God's actions are inconsistent with the definition you present. As I stated a couple other times in the other topic talking about this, a truly perfect God likely would not act the way the Biblical one acts.

So living under Communist rule as an obedient citizen was equivalent to having a loving relationship with the most perfect being who has ever existed? And Stalin was an omniscient, omnipotent being who created the whole world by merely speaking? Please, enlighten me on this subject.


When the alternative is eternal torment, yes. The other things dont matter. What matters is what this being does to you. Pain and suffering for all eternity is evil. Plain and simple.
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768
#20fudrickPosted 1/17/2013 4:28:10 PM
Julian_Caesar posted...
You're interested in your own brand of truth, nothing more. Until you cast off your own preconceived notions of what can and cannot be true, you will be never be seeking truth. You will be seeking affirmation of what you already believe to be true.


I was brought up in an environment where for many years, I had literally never come across the notion that a person could be a non-christian. Feel free to explain where my preconceived notions against christianity and belief in god came from, as a person who initially rejected christianity without even really understanding that that was possible and without realizing exactly what I was doing.
---
Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious