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Does creating a sentient being give you the right to mistreat it?

#171JonWood007(Topic Creator)Posted 2/7/2013 2:21:13 PM
Because if it keeps going in this direction,

1) It's not the first time we've had this discussion.

2) It's been beaten to death.

3) We don't get anywhere.

4) OW is a self described troll

5) This topic being open tempts me to post in it, even though I know it's not productive.

If you guys INSIST on having it open, fine, i'll leave it open, but I don't think anyone's gonna get anywhere debating OW over this topic yet again.
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#172fudrickPosted 2/7/2013 2:24:17 PM
I think a lot of people are going to be more receptive to OW's message when it's coming from kozlo, an atheist and a generally very well respected poster on this board. I tried for a bit in the last thread (I think that was the last thread, at least), but I don't have kozlo's patience or high standing among this board's members.
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#173WelshGamer82Posted 2/7/2013 2:28:14 PM
From: fudrick | Posted: 2/7/2013 10:24:17 PM | #172
I think a lot of people are going to be more receptive to OW's message when it's coming from kozlo, an atheist and a generally very well respected poster on this board. I tried for a bit in the last thread (I think that was the last thread, at least), but I don't have kozlo's patience or high standing among this board's members.


Assuming I'm not conflating you with another user, you've improved massively.
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#174kozlo100Posted 2/7/2013 2:30:11 PM
Who's debating OW anymore? I'm having a conversation with Hunter about the nature of his debate with OW. There's a lot to be learned from the guy, but it isn't found in the subject of his arguments. Whether or not he's a troll has no bearing on that.
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#175fudrickPosted 2/7/2013 2:59:02 PM
WelshGamer82 posted...
Assuming I'm not conflating you with another user, you've improved massively.


You may be, but I'll be the first one to admit that I've changed my posting style here. When I first came to this board, I suppose I trolled a bit; acted a little more obnoxious than I naturally would to provoke arguments and such. It wasn't until I realized that this is actually a generally great and interesting group of people that I started being... more serious, I guess? Looking at things as objectively as I can, though, I still would say I was always probably in the lower 50% or so of the bunch, when it comes to being the stereotypical douchebag, arrogant, faith-denigrating atheist. So, if you're remembering me as one of those "I hate you because you believe in your magical sky daddy" people, you're likely conflating me with someone else
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#176hunter_gohanPosted 2/8/2013 3:24:58 PM(edited)
kozlo100 posted...
You keep expanding the issue. There's isn't any 'they' here, there is OW, and he's objecting to you calling a perfect god evil, and he is right to do so.


Well I put that there because I was going along with the Stalinist analogy, but actually I've debated this with Systema and others. OW isn't the only one who uses this argument. I no more addressed a perfect god then you are currently addressing a poster that is never wrong. I, at best, addressed a god who claimed to be perfect and called that claim into question using his very own yard stick. By their fruit you will recognize them.

This is a big part of my point. Stay focused, only get into conversations you mean to get into, and don't shift them.


It is the side which insists we must accept his claim to be perfect to mean he actually is perfect before we can even discuss his supposed actions that is shifting it. The same way I'd be shifting the debate if I was really trying to get you to merely assume that I'm never wrong.

The fact that you think this is what is happening is why you need to learn this lesson from OW.


The only thing I learned from him is that it is a waste of time to address an admitted troll. And yes, that is exactly what happened. That thread wasn't created in a vacuum. If these theists didn't keep jumping into debates on YHWHs morality with "But I define everything he does as good!" that thread never would have been created.

Hell here's a thread from May of last year discussing the morality of the Bible:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/263-religion/62707660

I made it clear, multiple times, that I am in no way assuming YHWH to be morally perfect or that everything he does is by definition good. In post 86 I get this from 2ndSamurai:

"I would have said the same thing. Why wouldn't everything he do be good. What would be the reason of creating to do "bad." Have you ever considered there to be an utimate goal to the world?"

The thread didn't even involve OW until he jumped in and started defending slavery and genocide.

At post 174 Phizzle tries the same:

"God is the greatest possible being by definition."
"God is good by definition. If God says something is so, then it is by definition. "

It's absolutely nothing but begging the question. People trying to argue that YHWH is good because they assume or merely define him/his actions as good.

When attempting to actually defend these actions without logical fallacies fail, they fall back on begging the question and assuming that he is good; therefore, everything he does is good. So please forgive me if I reach the conclusion that is the only thing they have to back up their position. It's been demonstrated to me multiple times through debating theists like this over the years.
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#177JonWood007(Topic Creator)Posted 2/8/2013 3:32:11 PM
^^Which was precisely why I considered locking the topic, but hey, you guys knock yourselves out.
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#178hunter_gohanPosted 2/8/2013 3:34:04 PM
JonWood007 posted...
^^Which was precisely why I considered locking the topic, but hey, you guys knock yourselves out.


lol sorry man. If the person isn't a troll though I feel obligated to respond to posts addressed to me :p
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#179OrangeWizardPosted 2/8/2013 3:46:18 PM
From: hunter_gohan | #176

Well I put that there because I was going along with the Stalinist analogy, but actually I've debated this with Systema and others. OW isn't the only one who uses this argument. I no more addressed a perfect god then you are currently addressing a poster that is never wrong. I, at best, addressed a god who claimed to be perfect and called that claim into question using his very own yard stick. By their fruit you will recognize them.


Then we have nothing to say to each-other, since you're clearly not addressing my God. I don't believe in the God who claims that he is perfect. I believe in the God that IS perfect.
#180DarkContractorPosted 2/8/2013 4:36:13 PM
i think the logical conclusion is that evil is perfect and good and benevolent.

which isn't logical at all, but hey, thats where assuming the Bible gets you.
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