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Does creating a sentient being give you the right to mistreat it?

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2 years ago#31
Julian_Caesar posted...
I don't mean "preconceived" as in "rationalism". I mean "preconceived" as in "preassumed before this discussion even begins." I wasn't saying his notions of truth were inherent to his brain; I'm saying that he has accepted them as a priori assumptions for all these arguments. I have no idea where those assumptions of his actually came from; I simply observe that they exist.


Oh, I suppose you weren't actually referring to me, there. I guess I just assumed you were because you said that in response to a "what fudrick said" comment. Sorry about that
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2 years ago#32
Julian_Caesar posted...
From a perspective outside the story, perhaps. From a perspective inside the story, no. And we are "inside the story" of this universe, so to speak. We lack the perspective necessary to pass judgment on those actions.


Wait wait what? According to this we're "inside the story" of this universe, so we lack the perspective necessary to pass judgment on Hitler, Stalin etc? Lemme guess special pleading? I look at the actions done, whether Hitler, YHWH, or the Ori and just as easily judge them whether I'm in their universe or not. All three of those beings, whether fictional or not, seemed to have a hard on for genocide. One is in universe, one is out of the universe, and the third could fall into either of those. Two of them also had holy books espousing how morally awesome, omnipotent, and omniscient they were. One was lying; the other, well if he's real, then honestly it seems a hell of a lot more likely that he's also lying than genocide being a routine solution to problems of an omnipotent/omniscient/omni-benevolent/perfect being.

I don't mean "preconceived" as in "rationalism". I mean "preconceived" as in "preassumed before this discussion even begins." I wasn't saying his notions of truth were inherent to his brain; I'm saying that he has accepted them as a priori assumptions for all these arguments. I have no idea where those assumptions of his actually came from; I simply observe that they exist.


What are you talking about? That creating a sentient being doesn't give you the right to mistreat it, or my beef with YHWH?

If the former, it's ya know me not using special pleading. Can parents freely enslave and abuse their children that they created?

If the latter, it's the conclusion drawn when I dropped the a-priori belief that everything he did must be good. It's following the adage actions speak louder than words. It is again not using special pleading and saying this one particular guy is special so can commit all the genocide he wants while still being perfect and a moral paragon.
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2 years ago#33
hunter_gohan posted...
Wait wait what? According to this we're "inside the story" of this universe, so we lack the perspective necessary to pass judgment on Hitler, Stalin etc?


I could be wrong, but I think the point is that if God exists outside the Universe (which seems likely, given He created it), then we do not have the ability to comprehend enough of the big picture to make qualified judgments. On the other hand, we do have the ability to comprehend things about people that live(d) on this planet, and thus might, in fact, have the ability to make qualified judgments.
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2 years ago#34
From: Guilty_Crown | #033
I could be wrong, but I think the point is that if God exists outside the Universe (which seems likely, given He created it), then we do not have the ability to comprehend enough of the big picture to make qualified judgments. On the other hand, we do have the ability to comprehend things about people that live(d) on this planet, and thus might, in fact, have the ability to make qualified judgments.


Yeah, pretty much.

From: hunter_gohan | #032
What are you talking about? That creating a sentient being doesn't give you the right to mistreat it, or my beef with YHWH?


Neither really, although your beef with God is somewhat a result of your preconceived notions. I'm talking about your insistence on maintaining the principle that only scientifically observable/provable truths can possibly be true. If I'm wrong about that belief of yours then I'm sorry, but it seemed a reasonable conclusion based on the things that you've said.
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2 years ago#35
Guilty_Crown posted...
I could be wrong, but I think the point is that if God exists outside the Universe (which seems likely, given He created it), then we do not have the ability to comprehend enough of the big picture to make qualified judgments. On the other hand, we do have the ability to comprehend things about people that live(d) on this planet, and thus might, in fact, have the ability to make qualified judgments.


Ah, well the Tau'ri and Free Jaffa had absolutely no problem doing this to the Ori who also lived outside that universe in a higher plane of existence. If Stargate was real I'd be saying the same exact things I'm saying about YHWH about the Ori....though I'd be a hell of a lot quieter if I was on an Ori planet.

Julian_Caesar
Neither really, although your beef with God is somewhat a result of your preconceived notions. I'm talking about your insistence on maintaining the principle that only scientifically observable/provable truths can possibly be true. If I'm wrong about that belief of yours then I'm sorry, but it seemed a reasonable conclusion based on the things that you've said.


Oh well then no I don't believe that. There may very well be things that are true that science can't show. We just have no way of actually knowing about them besides guessing basically.

And that would have nothing to do with my beef with YHWH anyway. That is based squarely on morality. Dude is literally indistinguishable from the Ori when you look at both of their supposed actions.(Well besides the Ori being a group, actually imbuing their "bishops" with some mad power, and instructing people living in Medieval type towns how to build spaceships with weapons than can 2-hit Asgard shields capable of conquering an entire other galaxy and also how to build a device to travel there. No way their armies would've gotten bogged down by iron chariots when the Ori were with them :p)
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
2 years ago#36
Guilty_Crown posted...

I could be wrong, but I think the point is that if God exists outside the Universe (which seems likely, given He created it), then we do not have the ability to comprehend enough of the big picture to make qualified judgments.


This is pretty much just an argument from ignorance. Looking at it pragmatically, it is up to you (or Him) to demonstrate justification for his/their/its actions, or the proposition that there's a big picture that we are missing, or your idea that we aren't qualified to judge can't be upheld.
2 years ago#37
From: hunter_gohan | #035
Ah, well the Tau'ri and Free Jaffa had absolutely no problem doing this to the Ori who also lived outside that universe in a higher plane of existence. If Stargate was real I'd be saying the same exact things I'm saying about YHWH about the Ori....though I'd be a hell of a lot quieter if I was on an Ori planet.


I'm not so sure making an analogy between the Ori and God is a very reasonable connection. At least, not when specifically referring to the God of the Bible. For one thing, the Ori didn't create the Stargate universe, at least not according to in-universe "canon." Whereas the "canon" of the Bible universe is that God created everything.

And that would have nothing to do with my beef with YHWH anyway. That is based squarely on morality. Dude is literally indistinguishable from the Ori when you look at both of their supposed actions.(Well besides the Ori being a group, actually imbuing their "bishops" with some mad power, and instructing people living in Medieval type towns how to build spaceships with weapons than can 2-hit Asgard shields capable of conquering an entire other galaxy and also how to build a device to travel there. No way their armies would've gotten bogged down by iron chariots when the Ori were with them :p)


Again...you're referring to "actions" which are recounted within a text which explicitly states that God is beyond moral reproach. Whereas the actions of the Ori are recounted within a script which explicitly states that they are not beyond moral reproach. That's the difference. In terms of "canon" God is way more akin to the Ancients than the Ori, because He is good "within the canon."
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2 years ago#38
"Again...you're referring to "actions" which are recounted within a text which explicitly states that God is beyond moral reproach. Whereas the actions of the Ori are recounted within a script which explicitly states that they are not beyond moral reproach. That's the difference. In terms of "canon" God is way more akin to the Ancients than the Ori, because He is good "within the canon.""

He's the protagonist...that does not make him good. Patrick Bateman was the protagonist and he was also the bad guy.
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2 years ago#39
From: bratt100 | #038
He's the protagonist...that does not make him good. Patrick Bateman was the protagonist and he was also the bad guy.


Being the protagonist does not make any protagonist good, no. But in the case of the Bible, it explicitly states that God (its "protagonist") is morally perfect and beyond our reproach. This is a far different situation from that of Patrick Bateman, who was never presented as morally perfect.
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2 years ago#40
From: Thuggernautz | #036
This is pretty much just an argument from ignorance. Looking at it pragmatically, it is up to you (or Him) to demonstrate justification for his/their/its actions, or the proposition that there's a big picture that we are missing, or your idea that we aren't qualified to judge can't be upheld.


No, its an argument from assumption. If God exists the way the Bible says, then He needs no justification beyond His Existence and we are not qualified to judge.

So if you mean that we are scientifically "ignorant" of whether God actually exists, then sure. But calling it an "argument from ignorance" as if the Christian worldview itself has no justification for God's moral high ground, that's incorrect.
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